Healthcare after “No Deal”

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Varky
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Varky »

jeba wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:56 pm
Firefly wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:44 pm The problem is that no-one did expect Brexit, even those who voted for it like myself, MOH and I cheered at the news that morning.
How can you cheer on something which causes hardship on a lot of your fellow country(wo)men and will probably do lot of harm to the UK economy when most of what you wanted (like stopping non-EU immigration) can be avoided by other means? I find it mindboggling. A bit like those jokers who want my home region of Franconia separate from the state of Bavaria.
Problem is that the incompetent UK government did not use or publicise 'the other means' that could have been used to stop bot EU and non-EU immigration, otherwise the result of the referendum might have been different. Personally EU immigration was not a problem as, in general those immigrants paid their taxes etc. For me it was the mis-use of social payments by a minority of these EU immigrants well reported in some of the media
that was the problem.

Being a little more cynical, maybe we should look at the performance of the government in failing, over the last 10 years, to provide sufficient health and social services to cover the increased population/demand on the one hand but quite happily enjoying the increased revenue received from taxes on the other.

By not advertising the actual financial position regarding EU immigrants, they were actually diverting adverse criticism of their poor performance onto the migrants themselves.
Firefly
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Firefly »

Jeba

You do not know how Brexit will affect the British people or my Country, oh yes, we have had all the threats and the promise of dooms day, it doesn't wash, Brexiteers are just plain sick of it. You stay in the EU, (as I understand it YOU don't have a choice) I did, and I voted OUT along with the majority of those who chose to vote.

I do not pass judgement on what the people of Germany chose to do, and I see it, neither should you judge my people.

Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Jim B
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Jim B »

Excellent post Varky.
I have spent many many hours trying to explain to Hudswell that control of immigration and free movement of EU citizens was always available to successive UK goverments but it appears he is still determined to put the responsibilty on the shoulders of the EU.

Jim
jeba
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by jeba »

Firefly wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:55 pm Jeba

You do not know how Brexit will affect the British people or my Country, oh yes, we have had all the threats and the promise of dooms day, it doesn't wash, Brexiteers are just plain sick of it. You stay in the EU, (as I understand it YOU don't have a choice) I did, and I voted OUT along with the majority of those who chose to vote.

I do not pass judgement on what the people of Germany chose to do, and I see it, neither should you judge my people.

Jackie
Sorry, I do reserve the right to judge though. And I do know of a couple who may well have a big problem staying together in Germany (which doesn´t recognize common law partnerhips) because one of them doesn´t qualify for permanent residence (but as an EU citizen can fly under the radar and e. g. not have health insurance which for residents is mandatory but not for free). My friend I mentioned earlier is another example of someone who´s life may be turned upside down as she also may not qualify for a MEU1 but has so far been able to fly under the radar. So there is no doubt that it will affect some people badly. Or do you contest that? What should I think of people who cheer at something that brings misery to others? At best (since I don´t insinuate Schadenfreude) I think they don´t fully understand what they are cheering about. Plus I have a suspicion that they are not aware what could have been done to stop abuse of free movement without leaving the EU.
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Jimgward
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Jimgward »

Jim B wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:02 pm Excellent post Varky.
I have spent many many hours trying to explain to Hudswell that control of immigration and free movement of EU citizens was always available to successive UK goverments but it appears he is still determined to put the responsibilty on the shoulders of the EU.

Jim
Yes, well said..... you can argue with an intelligent person.... but not.....
jeba
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by jeba »

Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 pm I suspect little if anything will change in Cyprus, provided of course you do not try and go under the “Radar” and register via the MEU process appropriately.
That may well be true. However, I´m under the impression that quite a few Brits have been flying under the radar. Not only in Cyprus and not always being aware of that they were staying illegally.
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 pm I doubt if many UK residents actually considered the consequences (if indeed any ) to UK expats living abroad, that’s not being selfish it’s doing what they thought what was best for the country rather than the individual. It is our choice to live abroad, indeed many moved to a Cyprus prior to the country joining the EU. If not EU wide, individual arrangements can and will be made between the UK and individual countries, as is their sovereign right, and again in Cyprus, or indeed Spain and other countries with a large concentration of UK Expats I see little changing.
That´s something you can´t take for granted. E. g. as far as Germany is concerned from what I read many Brits there have a problem with that there is no NHS but that you have to pay for health insurance - and it´s not cheap. So far they often got away with using their EHIC card if they needed healthcare, but that will change once they´ll no longer be EU citizens. And once they have stayed in Germany for more than 3 months without joining public health insurance they won´t be entitled to it anymore. I very much doubt that they will get exemptions.
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 pm Perhaps that is just the optimist in me. And yes of course EU regulations allow you to control free movement...to a degree...but almost certainly a lot easier on paper than in practice. And yes...there are areas in the UK whose services have been overwealmed by the influx of EU citizens....Housing, hospitals, Schools. Yes the majority of these EU citizens pay taxes.but uncontrolled immigration is damaging the country, it will damage any country, gaining control of that immigration will hopefully ensure the UKs resources are not overwealmed and ensure that it gets the people it needs and want to be there.

As you said it would have been possible to control immigration even from EU countries much more than the UK chose to. It´s not the EU´s fault that your governments chose not to use those options. E. g. what do you think how many of those who voted leave knew that the UK wouldn´t have been required to grant free movement to Romanians and Bulgarians in 2004 (btw. Germany only has allowed it since 2011)? My guess is less than 10%. Similiar with access to tax funded services. Free movement doesn´t mean free movement into a country´s welfare system. But they blame the EU for failures of UK governments. Which is unfair.
jeba
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by jeba »

Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:30 pm And those UK expats “flying under the radar” had better get their act together or they will run into problems and rightly so.
And what about those who don´t qualify, e. g. because they can´t afford private insurance or will be rejected because of preexisting conditions or have a pension below the € 800 required for registration or all of the above? How do you suggest they "get their act together"?
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:30 pm And Jeba, how Germany decides to treat UK expats is up to them,
Do you think that´s much of a comfort to those affected?
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:30 pm health insurance is also not cheap in Cyprus, I should know, I pay it
The problem with private health insurance is that it´s not only unaffordable for many but also that they don´t have to take your business if you´re deemed too high a risk or that preexisting conditions will not be covered. I´m sure you know that.
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:30 pm The UK also had measures in place to control EU immigrants from Romania and Bulgaria which expired in 2014.
Wrong. The UK could have chosen to put such measures in place - but it didn´t. UK government granted free access to the labour market to Romanians and Bulgarians right from when those countries joined the EU in 2004. The article you linked doesn´t say otherwise.
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:30 pm You constantly State “in Germany” in your discussions,
Well, that´s because I know a thing or two about how things work in Germany wheras I´m much less familiar with other countries.
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:30 pm The UK, unlike Germany has a free NHS which UK expats living in Cyprus benefit from as do the Cypriot Government receiving funding from the UK.
As you said yourself the NHS doesn´t pick up the bill for all UK expats but only for those above retirement age (correct me if I´m wrong). Btw: will they pick up the bill for those receiving a UK disability pension while below retirement age (asking because that´s relevant to my friend)?
Hudswell wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:30 pmAnd please if your friends are UK expats residing in Cyprus without the appropriate documentation, please advise them to visit the immigration office before March.
As I said she doesn´t fulfill the requirements to get a MEU1. So what should I advise her?
trevnhil
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by trevnhil »

It does seem that some people have come to live in Cyprus without looking at the rules that were in place when they moved here..
Trev..
jeba
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by jeba »

trevnhil wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:24 am It does seem that some people have come to live in Cyprus without looking at the rules that were in place when they moved here..
Yes, quite a few according to the impression I get from forums like this (and even more in Germany). It wasn´t always deliberate ignorance of the law though but often simply because of naivity / lack of knowledge of the rules. Maybe not surprising if you consider that there is no obligation to register your adress in the UK. When my friend came here more than 10 years ago she would easily have qualified for registration but wasn´t aware she needed to. She even thought she could apply for Cypriot citizenship based on the length of her stay even though she never registered herself.
Jim B
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Jim B »

Hudswell
My daughter like Jeba's friend doesn't qualify for an MU3, she's lived here longer than you but doesn't meet the criteria of having a rental agreement, savings or sufficient income.
The medical infrastructure in Cyprus wasn't designed to accomodate the influx of UK citizens and has been overwhelmed but you don't see a national outpouring by the Cypriots over "Foreigners" overrunning their hospitals do you?
After all the evidence produced you are still in denial over who is responsible for the immigration problems and actually believing the government is treating EU citizens in the UK honourable. You only have to read of the terrible treatment many people are receiving on a daily basis as they try to register with the Home Office.

Life isn't black and white as you appear to believe, there are many shades of grey in between.

Jim
WHL
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by WHL »

Jeba re your friend flying under the radar, sorry no sympathy from me, if he/she chooses to be here, illegally like many others, not registering with the authorities, not paying taxes etc etc, then I hope they and others get whatever is coming to them.
jeba
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by jeba »

Hudswell wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:04 am Sorry Jeba but ignorance is no excuse, there is a wealth of information available for expats and if your friend is not aware then I am afraid he/she has simply not made the effort or just preferred to hide their heads in the sand, and actually if she is receipt of a disability benefit then they may be eligible...check! And my advice to them....if they cannot register, go home. And Jeba the works market opened up for Romanian and Bulgarian citizens opened up in the UK in 2014, after the lifting of restrictions...
Of course, she is guilty of not having done her homework back then when it would still have been easy for her to get a MEU1. But the consequences are too harsh in my view, given that she didn´t do any harm to anybody (quite the contrary, she even took in a homeless woman for 6 weeks until she found a place to live because she felt sorry for her) and has never been a burden on the Cypriot taxpayer (nor cheated on tax as her income was below the threshold anyway).

Last Monday there was a TV discussion about Brexit on German TV (sorry, in German obviously, but anyway: ) in which one of the experts explicitely stated that the UK gave immediate access to Romanians and Bulgarians in 2004 (when Germany refused to until 2011).
Jim B
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Jim B »

WHL
As my daughter is presently waiting to take up a PhD post in the UK she cannot meet the required criteria through no fault of her own. Her home is in Cyprus but due to Brexit and new Residency requirements she cannot meet she will have to leave.
I don't know if people moving here with children have considered that once they reach 18 they are classed as adults and will be responsible for meeting the new Residency requirements wereas under EU rules they were covered by the MU1 registration document which was usually obtained through their parents.

Jim
jeba
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by jeba »

Hudswell wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:45 am Jeba, Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU in 2007, the UK along with some other EU countries listed restrictions on Freedom of Movement and Employment in 2014. You have either misunderstood your German expert or they are taking bollocks. And as for your friend, I am afraid that she is leaving herself wide open for a world of pain unless she registers.
I´ve just checked. You´re right. He (the PM of a German state) was talking about Poland, not Romania/Bulgaria (at 30 min of the video). But it doesn´t really make a difference, does it? The fact remains that the UK could have refused full access to the labour market until 2014 but didn´t.
jeba
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by jeba »

Hudswell wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:03 am Yes it could have refused full access until 2014, as it was, like other EU countries restrictions were placed which effectively controlled the influx of EU citizens from Romania and Bulgaria. When these restrictions were lifted immigration from theses two countries leapt by 80% between 2014 and 2017. It made a difference.
An increase from 1 to 2 would be a relative increase of 100% so especially when you start from scratch relative increases are useless without the actual numbers. Anyway, I can´t assess what difference it made to the people of the UK. I was talking about whether talking about Poland rather than Romania made a difference to my point.
Jim B
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Jim B »

Hudswell wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:03 am Yes it could have refused full access until 2014, as it was, like other EU countries restrictions were placed which effectively controlled the influx of EU citizens from Romania and Bulgaria. When these restrictions were lifted immigration from theses two countries leapt by 80% between 2014 and 2017. It made a difference.
Hudswell
The same restrictions could have been introduced after 2014 as many other countries (as in Cyprus) do like having to have a rental agreement, an income or savings and medical insurance but the UK decided not to. The British Government decided not to control it's own borders, nothing to do with the EU. Free movement gave EU citizens the opportunity to live (as we do) or work in other EU countries with proviso's the UK decided not to introduce.
You go down to the Social Security in Polis and try and make a claim; after stopping laughing they would show you the door. If Cyprus can impose conditions on immigrant so could the UK.

Jim
Firefly
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Firefly »

Jeba

You have me painted as some evil person who has delighted in the pain and suffering of others, I can assure you that you are wrong, indeed my own health has suffered because I cared and nursed injured, sick and dying patients for a good few years. I also voluntarily gave hours of my time to help injured people, so do not presume to judge me.


You stand in judgement of me and my people, you are German, do not push me to judge you and your people.


Jackie
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Jim B
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Jim B »

The UK has no border controls for EU Citizens; go through Schipol and everyone has their passports scanned entering and leaving and the same goes for every other EU country I've been to.
Every country I've been to has ID cards apart from the UK, another quick way of determining who is legal and who isn't but the people don't want them. No I'D card. No Work. There are sweeps by the immigration police in Cyprus all the time and if you have no papers then the illegals are arrested and deported and anyone caught employing them is treated accordingly.
The population of Cyprus is that of an average sized city of which about 12% are foreign nationals and they appear able to cope.
The UK is the author of its own misfortunes but it's the usual situation where we blame everybody but ourselves.

Jim

PS The number of Romanians presently living in the UK is 390,000 which is less than a third of the population of Cyprus which is 1,220,000.
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MacManiac
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by MacManiac »

It seems that healthcare after a “No Deal” Brexit is not clear.

There is the possibility that an arrangement between the UK and Cyprus will be made, which will benefit Britons here and Cypriots in the UK. That would be a sensible course of action.

There is also a possibility this arrangement will not take place, or be delayed, leading to all sorts of problems for UK pensioners.

Private Health Insurance is an option for those that (a) can afford it and (b) whose pre-existing conditions do not preclude cover being offered.

Where does the implementation of the new NHS (GESY) leave Britons? Will they be covered if they pay the percentage of their income that is required? I asked my doctor at the hospital the other day and he just rolled his eyes and groaned. Will the percentage required (2.65% ultimately) be paid for by Britons living here, or will the UK government’s contribution cover this?

So many questions and so little time ... at times like this “Wait and See” seems a little ostrich-like.
Steve - SJD
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Re: Healthcare after “No Deal”

Post by Steve - SJD »

Hudswell wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:24 pm
Jim B wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:08 pm
Hudswell wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:03 am Yes it could have refused full access until 2014, as it was, like other EU countries restrictions were placed which effectively controlled the influx of EU citizens from Romania and Bulgaria. When these restrictions were lifted immigration from theses two countries leapt by 80% between 2014 and 2017. It made a difference.
Hudswell
The same restrictions could have been introduced after 2014 as many other countries (as in Cyprus) do like having to have a rental agreement, an income or savings and medical insurance but the UK decided not to. The British Government decided not to control it's own borders, nothing to do with the EU. Free movement gave EU citizens the opportunity to live (as we do) or work in other EU countries with proviso's the UK decided not to introduce.
You go down to the Social Security in Polis and try and make a claim; after stopping laughing they would show you the door. If Cyprus can impose conditions on immigrant so could the UK.

Jim
Jim the measures do exist in the UK and indeed are enforced...not as much as they should be! But let’s play the numbers game shall we, and the Romanians...the Romanian population in the UK alone stands at over 411,000, and 80% increase since 2014...because we can’t stop them actually coming into the UK...getting them out! Come on any Suggestions? that’s just under half the entire population of Cyprus..and you wonder why the UK can’t cope...unfortunately a touch of reality often blows the “regulations” out of the water.
Hudswell

Strange numbers game - why not compare the number of Romanians as a percentage of the overall population of the UK - not of Cyprus.

Is it not a tad hypocritical for immigrants into Cyprus, a country with one of the highest number of foreign nationals, to be complaining about the (relatively low) percentage of immigrants in their home country?? If you are so opposed to the notion of what you consider to be a high level of immigration then why choose to move to a country with a high level of immigration?

The fact is that when/if we do leave the EU then immigration in the UK will not go down enough to please those who object strongly to it. As can already be seen if the UK wants to make trade deals with non-eu countries then as part of the deal a relaxation of the immigration rules will play a part.

Cheers

Steve
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