Its All Kicking Off In Italy

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living the dream
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Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by living the dream »

Whilst Brexit has been a major topic at home and abroad all is not well with Italy the 3rd largest economy in the EU. The EU has rejected the budget put forward by the Italian Government to which they have walked away from the meeting stating that they are not interested in what Brussels dictates and they will follow the budget laid down as per their election manifesto.

As far as the Italian Government is concerned they have had 10 years of economic hardship and they intend to stick to their budget - a budget prepared by Italy and not Brussels as they see that this is the only path to bump starting their economy with major infrastructure projects, a liveable state benefit system, tax cuts and various other directives.

Part of a longer quote by Luigi Di Maio from the 5 Star Movement "This is the first Italian budget that the E.U. doesn’t like. I’m not surprised. It’s the first Italian budget that was written in Rome and not Brussels!” he posted. “Considering the damage they did to us first, we certainly couldn’t continue with their policies. His co-deputy PM Matteo Salvini added: "This doesn't change anything.They're not attacking a government but a people. These are things that will anger Italians even more",

Given the Italian economy is as small now as it was in 2008 according to the Italian Government its no surprise that Italy is now starting to kick back at Brussels, they have had 10 years of austerity with no end in sight. So with Spain and Portugal in similar positions and France's Marianne Le Penn continually gaining ground politically the solidarity of the EU seems to be slowly but surely eroding and certainly not the healthy and prosperous EU that many like to think it is.
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by Dominic »

They said the same immediately after the Brexit vote, that it was all a stack of cards and Frexit, Grexit etc would soon follow. They didn't.

And as to healthy and prosperous, how is the UK doing now?
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by bromerzz »

Forza Italia
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by Dominic »

bromerzz wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:42 pmForza Italia
Blimey, they've got a real "People's Popular Front of Judea" going on there...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_Italia_(2013)
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by tyelaw47 »

I really take no joy to see the unrest in the EU but to believe everything is hunky dory is just burying your head in the sand!
Germany are very unhappy at the ridiculous increase they are expected to pay,France are unhappy and Le Penn is gaining in popularity again.A Dutch MEP launched a scathing attack on Tusk the other day.Poland is not happy,neither is Hungary.I could go on as there are many reports now daily.
It appears to me that the EU want to increase their budget once the UK have left rather than looking to make efficiencies.
living the dream
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by living the dream »

Not speaking for anyone else I would say Brexit has become a farce, parties divided, Mrs Mays Plan seemingly unworkable, even though reports suggest that it is 95% agreed but the Irish Boarder will no doubt possibly prove to be a deal breaker and then Labour who are not interested in any deal and prepared to vote down any plan as it is from what I and many others see as a way of forcing a general election and worse still no plan of their own to implement.

Italy and other countries "outwardly appear" to have had enough of being ruled from Brussels and I agree with Tyelaw that fiscal policies handed to the EU 27 are about replacing the lost UK Contribution which will not sit well with the other major economies let alone the small countries.

2020 is the year new EU budgets are to be implemented hence why the many MPs across all parties are not happy at any Brexit extension as this could possible cost the UK a further 6 Billion up from the 12 Billion Contribution to 18 Billion should it extend to 2021. The potential loss of 18 Billion in contributions will have to be made up from somewhere and just to play devils advocate if Cyprus, Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia etc were all asked to contribute a significant sum to this shortfall then I could see a few of these member states throwing their rattles out of their prams.

Given Italy is the 3rd largest economy they may be stamping their feet but to compare Italys economy to Greeces economy is unrealistic Greece was all but bankrupt through gross mishandling of its economic policies and rightly or wrongly Tsipras was always trying to negotiate from a weakend position and lets face it in order to ensure that Greece did not go crashing out of the EU they were handed bailout after bailout and will spend the next 20 years paying the price no doubt - (a personal observation and not based on facts or figures).

My point being is; Brexit is not the only game being played out as Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and even Cyprus were all headline news prior to the Brexit vote and everyones attention now always appears to be Brexit related. Brussels do not or will not admit to major issues with other member states. Apparently (BBC News) Brussels has already got its hands full with dealing with Brexit and are not in a position to deal with a further crisis with any other member state.

Solidarity - of course the 27 are sticking together they do not want to lose a major contributor to the EU but likewise probably do not want to make up the shortfall themselves and if Italy get their way it will either open the flood gates for other economies to write their own budgets or forced to accept the EU budget recommendations, this could potentially force Italians to their own potential referendum on EU membership.
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by Jim B »

Hudswell
It's called following the rules. Italy signed up to an agreement and only their successive goverments got themselves into the mess they're in but you appear to think they should either ignore what they agreed or unilaterally change the rules to suit themselves.

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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by living the dream »

All EU Countries signed up to various agreements based on the principles that the EU would become this goliath of global trade etc however it has slowly become burdoned with massive debts, mass unemployment in many EU countries with the youth of those countries having to either accept minimal benefits or move to other prosperous countries to find work.

The financial crisis that affected the vast majority of global economies has been and passed in many of those economies but for many EU countries they are still living 10 years on with harsh austerity. Italy, Greece, Portugal, Poland, Hungary are all struggling with their economies and to ignore this is just plainly ludicrous. Italy is rattling its sabre but if the Brussels technocrats are not willing to compromise which I suspect is all Italy wants then you will see the sabre rattling taken to a new level.

I personally think that Brussels is overseeing its own demise by not willing to listen or compromise with its 27 member states. When Cameron went to Brussels to try and negotiate new policies and compromises on existing policies Brussels did not want to listen and brushed him aside - the result; a referendum, and a referendum result that truly shocked the Brussels elite.

Lets face it for any organisation not to have produced any accounts for the past 40 years to show where all these trillions not billions of euros have gone shows a complete disregard for the tax payers and governments of those member states.Italy like many countries are fed up, they want compromise they want the sovereignty of controlling their own finances not the rhetoric from Brussels based on do as we say and not as we do.
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by living the dream »

Excellent post with some excellent points.
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by Lofos-Jan »

I recently drove from Rome to Scicily, via Naples and the change from rich to poor was tangible. In Scicily we did a warts and all trip exploring all areas outside of the main tourist resorts. It was just so sad. Bad housing, poverty and almost 85% unemployment. Many of the few 'jobs' being pitches given by the local mafia for collection of illegal car parking monies and even collection of money at the automatic toll boothes! Locals told us that there is a sense of Rome being a million miles away and the further South you go, the less Rome seems to care. The mafia is very prevalent still despite recent crackdowns but we were told that it is they that put food on the tables of most of the locals so it is a hard system to break. It was so beautiful in some places and so really awful in others. It was frankly hard to believe that we were in th EU.

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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by ApusApus »

Sad Jeanne but just another example of the north-south (or south-north depending on where you live) divide, not just in Europe but in most parts of the world!


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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by jeba »

Termites Dream wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:34 pm Meanwhile ECB warns about the Italian banks.......to up the pressure on Italian banks.
You´re aware that the ECB is headed by an Italian, are you?
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by jeba »

Hudswell wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:53 pm And your point is?
That it is doubtful that the Italian head of the ECB is deliberately trying to put pressure on Italian banks. On the contrary his policies (negative interest rates; "whatever it takes") have been specifically meant to save them (at the expense of e. g. savers who happen to more likely to be found in Northern Eurozone countries).
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by jeba »

The interpretation that Draghi said what he said merely to attack the Italian financial system is nothing but an imputation. It simply is the truth that capital markets are worried about Italy´s creditworthiness (just compare the interest rate they have to pay to that of the Northern countries) and that further contributing to that loss of trust has the potential to do even more harm. Therefore, it should rather be avoided.
You could easily interprete his statement as an attempt to prevent the Italian government of ruining their financial reputation and harming all of the Eurozone along the way. Which I´d say is part of his job.
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by jeba »

Termites Dream wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:39 pm I did not use the word "attack " the article did, one of two or three I read,...... I said "up the pressure" and I am comfortable with that conclusion. If you see it differently that is your right but your last two lines seem to agree with my statement to "up the pressure".
No, I disagree. In my view he should up the pressure rather than constantly bail out Italy and others by buying their bonds "whatever it takes" - which is in vioalation of the Lissabon treaty which explicitely stated that the ECB isn´t allowed to finance member states (as via TARGET balances other Eurozone members - especially Germany with it´s 1 trillion TARGET credit - are at risk of holding the empty bag which enables the Italian goverment to blackmail them).
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by living the dream »

4 Days ago - Italian Prime Minster Conte launched a scathing attack on the EU claiming he will not back down on the Italian Budget and pledged that his loyalties lie with the Italian Electorate and not Brussels. (Daily Express)

13 Hours ago "there will be NO major changes to the Italian Budget (CNBC)

So is this still a case of a child at the till stamping his feet because he can't have the chocolate bar they want as HIC described the Italian Budget plans - Is the EU this fantastic democracy of benevloance as various posters constantly support - well we shall all see by the morning as the EU Deadline will have come and gone.

In my own humble opinion the EU have now backed themselves into a corner - They succumb to Italy's budget planning and let it ride; in which case watch other countries do the same and come up with their own budgets in line with their own view on economic growth who are currently governed by EU directives on fiscal policy - OR the EU stand by their first statements on Italy with "do as we say" or risk billions of euros in fines etc and watch the Italians push for their own referendum - Brexit was the first crack, with the EU being now slowly forced into a corner of their own making where I suspect further cracks will now start to appear - well HIC and your others supporters are you going to still try and argue that the EU is as solid as a rock with ALL member states in solidarity - as one strategist put it Italys budget has the potential to threaten the whole EU Project.

HIC don't take this personally but over the last year or so you have constantly crowed about how you predicted this that and the next thing with regards to Brexit and have ardently supported the EU and argued that the EU is the best thing since the invention of the wheel.

You being the sage you are didn't for one moment see or predict this coming. In other threads you generally put together fair and thoughtful debate but when a topic is about Brexit or the EU then your point of view is totally one sided with the usual "I told you so" Do you still think that Italys is the child stamping its feet at the till because it can't have the chocolate bar it wanted, I and most Italians would surmise it is a case of a country tied of being told what they can and cannot do, dictated to with regards to fiscal policy, immigration and laws implemented outside of their own judicial system and 10 years of hardship and austerity - oh that rings a bell:- the UK called it BREXIT
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by jeba »

living the dream wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:48 pm I and most Italians would surmise it is a case of a country tied of being told what they can and cannot do, dictated to with regards to fiscal policy, immigration and laws implemented outside of their own judicial system and 10 years of hardship and austerity
Well, I´d rather say it´s a case of a country being told that it has to honour commitments made when joining the Euro. Is that expecting too much in your view?
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by Jim B »

No member country has to follow the EU where it doesn't want to go unlike in the UK where Scotland and Northern Ireland have to do what they are told. As for a European Army, just more scaremongering from Brexiteers.

https://www.cer.eu/insights/eu-army-fou ... not-happen

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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by Jim B »

As we keep repeating to you infinitum, the UK does not have to do anything it doesn't want to do as far as a European Army is concerned. If it doesn't want to be part of a European Army then it doesn't have to be. If Merkel and Macron aspire to having a European Army that's up to them; the UK doesn't have to be a party to it. As said, just scaremongering by an anti EU Press.
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Re: Its All Kicking Off In Italy

Post by Jimgward »

Hudswell, there is as much chance of a successful EU Army, as a UN one. The UN is far too wishy-washy and late to every issue.
If I was the US, I would be annoyed with any process to solidify the EU.

Now I don't think any EU military force will occur anytime soon - but I can see merit with it - if they can find a proper way to control it - how do you give control to 27 countries in a security system - it would end up being like the UN....
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