Just slowly the penny is beginning to drop...

[Jimgward]

Interestingly, the mainstream media largely ignored this cabinet debacle last evening - Robert Peston was the only one to speak about the chartering, leasing and purchase of roll-on ferries to use other ports in the UK. The warnings are grim. They're talking about the need to employ another 600 customs staff and an IT system that hasn't even been designed yet. The M26 will be a lorry park.

I know this is preparation for the worst, but should we even be exposed to a part of this, the economy will nose-dive.

[Jimgward]

The UK has a terrible reputation for developing IT systems for the public sector. We spent £14bn on the NHS system and it was scrapped.
We were bold in creating the new DVLA system, that the Head wanted to expand into all transport sectors, till the Ministers refused to find any betterment. He resigned, went to the US and is heading a multi-national.

[living the dream]

Planes grounded, ships unable to dock, trains halted, food and drugs shortages, mass exodus of settled migrants, loss in tax revenues, playground politics, labour in government etc etc etc.

As a country the UK has always come together in the face of adversity we have adapted we have overcome and we have prospered. Negativity is something a true brit regardless of colour or creed sees as an obstacle to overcome not to roll over and accept.

The penny dropped when the results of Brexit was announced but all the doomsday predictions never came into play as predicted. There are extremely tough times ahead with hard choices to make that is an absolute fact and something I do not disagree with but to continually think that the UK will sink into the abyss shows that either people have a very short memory or just gleeful in able to say for the moment "I told you so".

The people voted (or the vast majority did), Brexit, Brexit is going to happen come what may we just have to get on with it, deal or no deal and as a country I think you will find the populous will get on with it; more paper work probably - yes, more problems at ports and airports - no doubt, staff shortages in key areas - no doubt, tax hikes - unlikely, shortages across various sectors - no doubt, will businesses adapt - absolutely, Will life go on - absolutely.

[Jimgward]

The people voted (or the vast majority did), Brexit, Brexit is going to happen come what may we just have to get on with it, deal or no deal and as a country I think you will find the populous will get on with it; more paper work probably - yes, more problems at ports and airports - no doubt, staff shortages in key areas - no doubt, tax hikes - unlikely, shortages across various sectors - no doubt, will businesses adapt - absolutely, Will life go on - absolutely.

A minority of the country populace voted for Brexit. A slight majority of the voters.

As to us working better in adversity, this applies to recovering from a war.... but we never ever even did that very well - look at the depressions of the 30's and 50's...

As to tax hikes..... inevitable, unless we increase the deficit and overall debt, like we have been doing for over 10 years. We cannot give the NHS an extra £50bn, plus pay an exit of a similar sum, plus fund issues in social care, without extra money. That labour money tree could come in useful

[Jim B]

Living the Dream
But at the end of the day what is the gain for going through all that pain?
The country is split and opposing sides are becoming more entrenched. If you think people who fundamentally disagree with Brexit are going to get behind it after March I believe you are sadly mistaken.
The vast majority didn't vote to leave, it was about 36% of the population and although job positions being moved to other European countries is presently a trickle let's see what happens in December when we find out if there is a deal or not.
When the Pound dropped from around €1.30 to €1.11 it was Doomsday for many British people living overseas and they've had to return to the UK; I would just like to hear one positive outcome of all this mess.

Oh by the way; have you read the report issued by the National Audit Office yesterday; that will cheer everybody up.

Jim

[living the dream]

Yes we had a depressions in the 30's and 50's which were post war but look what the UK achieved since -this little island in the North Sea became the 5th largest economy in the world. Hard work, that bulldog spirit, the never ending optimism that we as a country can prosper from adversity. Brexit is no different, it is a mountain to climb an obstacle to overcome. People who see it for what it is will think of ways to prepare, budget and set their sights on achievable goals which; in my humble opinion is the vast majority of hard working Brits of every race colour and creed - those sitting back with an attitude of "I told you so or I predicted that" will no doubt wallow in self glee for many a year as opportunities to improve their own situations pass them by. Labours money tree LOL, tax businesses to the hilt and watch them leave in droves creating mass unemployment in their wake, we wouldn't have to worry about labour and their union cronies wanting to protect jobs as there wouldn't be any jobs left.

[tyelaw47]

Oh for goodness sake Jim if people did not bother to vote then they did not vote.No one knows what all those non voters would have voted for ( save for you and HIC of course!!)
We all knew the criteria for voting. There were some silly exaggerated claims made by both sides.The Government spent millions on leaflet drops to every household encouraging people to vote remain yet the majority voted Leave - end of. It really does smack of desperation when two years after the event people are still trying to say it was incorrectly done!

[Jimgward]

The point is being missed, I was simply correcting the "The people voted (or the vast majority did)" - when they didn't...

Hudswell says "You just make things up Jim, to suit your agenda" - well, no I don't and didn't - a "slim majority" as you say - so what's made up?

I've stated before that we will leave.... I accept that, but not on ANY terms.... terms that could cost my children and grand-children's future....

As to the "bulldog spirit" - it's different times. We can't compete in labour markets. We are a services country now. Too much money based on the City of London - accepting money from any source, the biggest money laundering centre in the world. So, at any cost, we are No1 in money and perilous because of that - as we saw in 2008.

I know the UK can pick itself up and become stronger, but the pain of the slit may well cripple us for decades - or as Rees-Mogg said, 50 years....

[living the dream]

Jim

Brexit was foisted upon us all, we had the option to vote in what was clearly advertised as the UK most important decision for the last 50 odd years. The people that didn't vote - shame on them, given the decision given to the public by our MPs. I may be wrong but it appears to me that most of those who didn't vote are the ones most critical. Yes there were what I would only describe as Lies from both sides however it was the peoples choice to make up their own minds, the votes were cast and the result was Brexit.

You are perfectly right there will be pain to go through but my point is about the British bulldog spirit, about facing and overcoming adversity. It was a one off referendum, do we have another and another and another till remainders get what they want. One off meant one off.

As far as those living overseas I fully sympathise with those people working or retired that have had to return back to the UK but the euro rate was always accepted as being overinflated and not sustainable long term with many posters on this forum accepting that 1.20 - 1.23 was more realistic,

I accept Brexit has not helped that particular situation but I accept that the result is the result. It is now up to a nation divided as we are, that we will have to eventually accept this is the outcome and regardless of a deal or no deal we have to move forward and make the best of a bad situation. Given the way the rest of Europes going currently it may be the right decision in the long term but yes you are absolutely right there will be pain.

[Jim B]

Tyelawe
You are very quick in making incorrect insinuations.
I have never ever stated in any of my posts that the people who didn't vote would have voted remain, I was correcting LtD statement that the vast majority voted leave which is incorrect and there were only a couple of percentage points difference between those who actually did vote.
The only desperation I can see is jittery leavers who appear to be running scared of a second vote and would rather see the country tear itself apart than admit they made a mistake. Also millions like me don't see why we should just lie down and accept that our families lives should be affected for no good reason or benefit just to satisfy a few ideologues

LtD
I don't think people will be too happy with years of austerity for no other reason than sticking a finger up at the EU and we became the 5th largest economy after we joined the EU; have you looked what our position is now since the UK voted to leave and we haven't left yet.
As for Bulldog Spirit; we're not fighting a war, everything is self inflicted. We have no manufacturing industry to talk of (apart from assembling cars of which 78% of the parts come from Europe) and are basically a service economy. All the heavy industry is long gone, we have few young Engineers that's why skilled people are working into their seventies because there is no one coming up through the ranks. In the days you describe the country was awash with artisans but not any more.

Jim

[living the dream]

So we just keep having referendums till one side or the other is happy. Sorry but it was a One Time Only referendum this was made perfectly clear to the WHOLE Country and expats in all parts of the globe.

I am not going get into a debate as to why we have no heavy industry I think that most people all ready recognise as to why we have not got heavy industry or mining etc.

So your position as with hardened remainers is basically to sit and gripe about it till you get what you want, can't see it happening myself but in the meantime everyone else gets on taking the bull by the horns and and making the best of a bad hand dealt.

Many of my friends, relatives and work colleagues voted remain but they all have accepted the result and just want to see our MPs get on with either doing a deal or not either way they will strive to make the best of whatever comes their way as they put it.

[Jim B]

I voted in 1974 to join in a once in a lifetime referendum and look where we are; people are slowly changing their point of view as they realise it's not going to be all rainbows and unicorns as they were promised.
Our position is not to sit and gripe but to try and turn things around as shown by the 700 thousand marching last Saturday; now that's Bulldog Spirit, not just sitting there trying to make the best of a bad deal.

Jim

[Jimgward]

Again a slight twist there Jim, you clearly stated a "Minority" voted, it was 72.2% of eligible voters that voted! That is not a minority in anyone's books. If you didn't vote, then actually you don't count. Yes it was a slim majority for the leave vote....but it was a majority. Now if the vote had gone the other way I suspect you and others would be touting it as a victory for democracy...you can't have it both ways.

A minority of the voting population voted to leave - as I said clearly.....
A majority who voted, voted to leave by a slim majority.

Democracy means that people have a democratic right to seek a democratic process - if that means another vote on the terms, so be it... that's proper democracy. Democracy didn't die with the vote.

Someone used an analogy on here, about putting down a deposit for a new car, 12 months before delivery.... but the manufacturer doubles the price - should you be held to that?

People may have understood it was an important vote, but nobody understood all the implications of that - for sure, May doesn't even now! The NI situation with the DUP should never have been accepted. It is SENSIBLE to have a sea border with Ireland. It is the ONLY way to secure the rest of the country.

I'll also remind you that Farage said very clearly, if the vote was to remain, he would continue to push for separation and ask for another vote...

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/n ... um-7985017

Facts, Hudswell, not made up to suit any agenda - you should try sometime....

[Jimgward]

So we just keep having referendums till one side or the other is happy. Sorry but it was a One Time Only referendum this was made perfectly clear to the WHOLE Country and expats in all parts of the globe.

I have never, ever, heard the referendum referred to as a "One Time Only" - source please?

See post above about Farage - why would he say that, if it was "One Time Only"?

[living the dream]

So we just keep having referendums !! In 1974 if I am not mistaken was a vote to join the common market which was a totally different animal that was slowly manipulated into our current EU resulting in the Masstricht Treaty that only just managed to get ratified. Various countries that had referendums only won by the slimmest of majorities - France 50.08%, Denmark 50.7% - funny how those countries populations stuck by their own referendums yet we cannot. Did those voters who lost the referendum in Denmark and France kick off because it did not go their own way on a life changing treaty they saw as bad ? no they just got on with it.

UK did not even have a referendum on the subject and it was ratified behind close doors. There was a clear constitutional rationale for the UK requiring a referendum because although MPs are entrusted with legislative power by the electorate, they are not given authority to transfer that power, a fact according to a leading legal historian the ratification of the treaty by the House of Commons might be legal, it would not be legitimate as it would require popular consent (a referendum) which was never held.

[Jimgward]

And democracy is not have vote after vote until you get the answer you want is it? Now if 100% of the voting public voted and the majority, albeit a slim majority voted to leave I wonder what your stance would be then? and Jim it is not sensible to have a border with Northern Ireland, some value the integrity of the United Kingdom AND Northern Ireland, a concept alien to your EU technocrats, who know nothing of the history of the Island.

No it's not - nobody says vote after vote - have a multi-question referendum, as it should have been..... with CLEAR implication of what each question means.... such as "DO you vote to Leave the EU under any terms, irrespective of consequences for the UK?" "Do you vote to Leave with a negotiated settlement, allowing tariff-free trade with the EU - even if that means a customs union?"

As to Ireland - I know the history and at some point, it could easily reunite. Should that be a vote for all Ireland? The original split was for purely protectionist reasons and has caused the problem. As to a border - are you seriously suggesting 300 crossing points be blocked to allow only monitored points? Split farms down the middle... Communities.... All it entails? So, please tell me your enlightened proposal - you've been there in an armoured carrier, so must know the best solution...

[Jimgward]

LTD - you've answered you're own question - Parliament cannot approve a deal to transfer power - it has to go to the populace...

[Jim B]

The UK has a representative democracy where elected officials represent the people as opposed to a direct democracy where the people represent themselves. That is the system (like it or not) and Maastricht was voted on according to our system of government. We have MPs who are paid to make decisions for the good of the people but by throwing the in/out EU question to the people the government abdicated their responsibility.
Why is it not democratic to have a second referendum (or people's vote). Government's call elections when it suits them; Theresa May called one just over two years from the last one in March 2015, was that democratic. If so the referendum was over two and a half years ago.
Democracy only suits when it suits.
Jim

[tyelaw47]

Jim B
Sorry, maybe I did not make myself clear. What I meant was that we all knew what you and HIC would have voted for had you voted - simple as that and yes I know that you would have voted had your papers been received!

[living the dream]

According to constitutional law if the legal historian was right then we was illegally in the EU Club in the first place and transferred our sovereignty accordingly without a vote from the electorate. Had the UK been given the choice of a referendum that it was constitutionally required to do it would have been interesting to see if the vote would have been in favour to ratify the Masstricht Treaty in the first place.

We had a referendum yet thats not good enough, other countries stuck to their results, they might not have liked it but they accepted the results even though the results was closer than the Brexit result. I still go back to my personal opinion that we have to just get on with it, I for one personally do not want another referendum as this would just make a mockery of the first referendum. Out of interest for those who voted to remain should they get their wish and the UK held another referendum and it still votes to leave would they be satisfied even with a higher margin say 56% leave to 44% Remain or would it be a case we keep going for referendum after referendum till the result swing the remain way.