Attempted murder of russians in Salisbury

[Poppy]

WHL made the claim that British agents are committing murders. I asked him for some facts. He could not substantiate that claim by even pointing to any unsolved murders that might be linked to a British agent even. The difference here is that we have two very critically ill people and one very severely ill person that we know have been poisoned.
Yet again I believe you are being deliberately obtuse. There is proof of what the nerve agent is and where it was made. This is in a very controlled state laboratory environment. Our Government gave Russia the possible opt out clause that somehow it had escaped that environment but they declined to comment.
There are many amazing theories from Russians themselves as to why this happened which are only theories so I will not go there.
I repeat Russia are very very dangerous and to my mind out of control.

[Jimgward]

Since there are only 4 places in the world who could make that, I believe it was Russia.

I find it incredible, that since this happened 6 miles from Porton Down, that our reaction with sending in suited and prepared help, took so long. Why did we not have an emergency strategy?

[WHL]

WHL made the claim that British agents are committing murders. I asked him for some facts. He could not substantiate that claim by even pointing to any unsolved murders that might be linked to a British agent even. The difference here is that we have two very critically ill people and one very severely ill person that we know have been poisoned.
Yet again I believe you are being deliberately obtuse. There is proof of what the nerve agent is and where it was made. This is in a very controlled state laboratory environment. Our Government gave Russia the possible opt out clause that somehow it had escaped that environment but they declined to comment.
There are many amazing theories from Russians themselves as to why this happened which are only theories so I will not go there.
I repeat Russia are very very dangerous and to my mind out of control.

Yep you got me there, British agents dont murder anyone, they invite them round for tea and cake and ask them to be good boys....even you arnt that naive its only those nasty CIA/Israelis/Russians etc...what a load of baloney ....O by the way the clue is in Secret Service...google it.

[Poppy]

Have you ever heard the saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?Ok you win I'll bow out because you cannot have a sensible debate.

[WHL]

Have you ever heard the saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?Ok you win I'll bow out because you cannot have a sensible debate.

Oops wrong again , its actually ''Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but the highest form of intelligence,” wrote that connoisseur of wit, Oscar Wilde.

[Firefly]

Poppy

You're a thinking woman, some men can't cope with that.

[Dominic]

For moderate posters you two are incredibly catty.

[Jimgward]

The Novichok Story Is Indeed Another Iraqi WMD Scam 337
14 Mar, 2018 in Uncategorized by craig | View Comments

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... -wmd-scam/

As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. (Black, 2016)

Robin Black. (2016) Development, Historical Use and Properties of Chemical Warfare Agents. Royal Society of Chemistry

Yet now, the British Government is claiming to be able instantly to identify a substance which its only biological weapons research centre has never seen before and was unsure of its existence. Worse, it claims to be able not only to identify it, but to pinpoint its origin. Given Dr Black’s publication, it is plain that claim cannot be true.

The world’s international chemical weapons experts share Dr Black’s opinion. The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is a UN body based in the Hague. In 2013 this was the report of its Scientific Advisory Board, which included US, French, German and Russian government representatives and on which Dr Black was the UK representative:

[The SAB] emphasised that the definition of toxic chemicals in the Convention would cover all potential candidate chemicals that might be utilised as chemical weapons. Regarding new toxic chemicals not listed in the Annex on Chemicals but which may nevertheless pose a risk to the Convention, the SAB makes reference to “Novichoks”. The name “Novichok” is used in a publication of a former Soviet scientist who reported investigating a new class of nerve agents suitable for use as binary chemical weapons. The SAB states that it has insufficient information to comment on the existence or properties of “Novichoks”. (OPCW, 2013)

OPCW: Report of the Scientific Advisory Board on developments in science and technology for the Third Review Conference 27 March 2013

Indeed the OPCW was so sceptical of the viability of “novichoks” that it decided – with US and UK agreement – not to add them nor their alleged precursors to its banned list. In short, the scientific community broadly accepts Mirzayanov was working on “novichoks” but doubts he succeeded.

Given that the OPCW has taken the view the evidence for the existence of “Novichoks” is dubious, if the UK actually has a sample of one it is extremely important the UK presents that sample to the OPCW. Indeed the UK has a binding treaty obligation to present that sample to OPCW. Russa has – unreported by the corporate media – entered a demand at the OPCW that Britain submit a sample of the Salisbury material for international analysis.

Yet Britain refuses to submit it to the OPCW.

Why?

A second part of May’s accusation is that “Novichoks” could only be made in certain military installations. But that is also demonstrably untrue. If they exist at all, Novichoks were allegedly designed to be able to be made at bench level in any commercial chemical facility – that was a major point of them. The only real evidence for the existence of Novichoks was the testimony of the ex-Soviet scientist Mizayanov. And this is what Mirzayanov actually wrote.

One should be mindful that the chemical components or precursors of A-232 or its binary version novichok-5 are ordinary organophosphates that can be made at commercial chemical companies that manufacture such products as fertilizers and pesticides.

Vil S. Mirzayanov, “Dismantling the Soviet/Russian Chemical Weapons Complex: An Insider’s View,” in Amy E. Smithson, Dr. Vil S. Mirzayanov, Gen Roland Lajoie, and Michael Krepon, Chemical Weapons Disarmament in Russia: Problems and Prospects, Stimson Report No. 17, October 1995, p. 21.

It is a scientific impossibility for Porton Down to have been able to test for Russian novichoks if they have never possessed a Russian sample to compare them to. They can analyse a sample as conforming to a Mirzayanov formula, but as he published those to the world twenty years ago, that is no proof of Russian origin. If Porton Down can synthesise it, so can many others, not just the Russians.

And finally – Mirzayanov is an Uzbek name and the novichok programme, assuming it existed, was in the Soviet Union but far away from modern Russia, at Nukus in modern Uzbekistan. I have visited the Nukus chemical weapons site myself. It was dismantled and made safe and all the stocks destroyed and the equipment removed by the American government, as I recall finishing while I was Ambassador there. There has in fact never been any evidence that any “novichok” ever existed in Russia itself.

To summarise:

1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information such as impurities that can safely attribute this substance to Russia.
2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist.
3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW.
4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can.
5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians.

With a great many thanks to sources who cannot be named at this moment

[Dominic]

That's very interesting. Thanks.

[Firefly]

Dominic

What I posted wasn't catty, it is fact.

[Dominic]

No it wasn't. Gender has nothing to do with it.

[Devil]

I must admit that May may have made a big mistake. There is no smoking gun that implicates Russians, in the info that has been published. I'm not talking about probabilities but certainty that the poison was even of Russian origin. In view of this, I can understand Corbyn's reticence, as I assume he has had scientific briefing from his adviser. Even if the UK experts have opined Russian origin, there is no proof that it was administered under orders from the Kremlin. Furthermore, I assume that the Russian male victim had retired from the cloak and dagger game, so the motive must have been related to prior activities. There is only one verity in the whole affair: May and Co. are not informing the public of the whole and honest truth. We are being brainwashed by speculation. Is Russia behind the affair? Probably yes but it is uncertain.

[Jimgward]

Apparently TM has agreed to send samples to the OPCW - which I assume was necessary to convince France and the US to come on board....

However, on it's own, that isn't evidence of anything other than that we have a sample of this Nerve agent.

It's very strange, that the Doctor who attended and provided CPR - wasn't affected at all..... yet a policeman was!

[Jimgward]

I have seen, albeit state controlled, footage of interviews with Russians and they thought Russia was right to eliminate a traitor!

Evidence does point to Russia, but the posting above does pose some tricky questions.....

[Dominic]

i would suggest that the UK authorities were always going to (have provided) the OPCW with the findings and samples from Porton Down, which is probably the most respected scientific establishment of its type in the world. The UN and NATO have already declared its support for the UK and its actions and whilst it may be impossible to prove direct Russian State Involvement in what is a Chemical Attack, carried out on another Soveriegn State, the weight of evidence almost certainly points to it, otherwise the UK would not be receiving the support it is. The Russian State have form, declared intent, capability and means. Military Grade Nerve Agent is probably quite difficult to obtain on the open market...but easily transported in diplomatic bags....I suspect the Russian people are as horrified as most at the actions of the Russian State.

I was wondering where you had got to. Been on hols?

[WHL]

Yep...a cruise...all the money I save from watching subscription free tv

You didnt come across your mate ''Royal'' did you, he was last seen on a cruise, never to come back

[Dominic]

Can we draw a line under this Royal / Hudswell thing as it is a bit tedious now.

[WHL]

No surprise there then, double standards R us http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -visa.html

[PhotoLady]

LOL, and now those who know all about these kind of things have just said they cannot confirm one way or another that "it was the Russians that did it"

The precise source of the nerve agent used to poison a Russian ex-spy and his daughter has not been verified, says the head of Porton Down laboratory.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43633694

So, was it a conspiracy theory all along by the Tories as has been indicated several times????

[Jimgward]

Boris caught blatantly lying.... has to go....