Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

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PhotoLady
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Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by PhotoLady »

Brexit: EU-27 agree negotiating stance
European Union leaders have unanimously agreed the negotiating guidelines for Brexit talks with UK.
European Council President Donald Tusk, chairing the talks in Brussels, tweeted that the "firm and fair political mandate" for the talks was ready.
The 27 leaders took less 15 minutes to approve the draft guidelines for the negotiations, which were issued on 31 March by Mr Tusk.

The draft guidelines are here below, it specifically mentions the SBA areas of Cyprus: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/p ... elines.pdf

Negotiations won't start until after the UK Election on 8 June.
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Lofos-Jan »

Link here http://g8fip1kplyr33r3krz5b97d1.wpengin ... llText.pdf.

Doesn't look that bad to me although pretty broad.

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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by josef k »

Thanks for this. It includes the statement:
"Agreeing reciprocal guarantees to settle the status and situations at the date of withdrawal of EU and UK citizens, and their families, affected by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union will be a matter of priority for the negotiations. Such guarantees must be enforceable and non-discriminatory".
The fact that it includes "and their families" is particularly welcome for those of us who are married to non-EU citizens. It is regrettable that the UK government can't make a similar statement. My response from the High Commission stated that the future arrangements non-EU family members was a matter for Cyprus, not the UK.
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by ApusApus »

Termites Dream wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:14 pm Aim / paragraph 22 rather leaves it dead in the water from Photo ladies link.

After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom.
A deliberate inclusion which can be cast off in negotiations methinks ........... or may be one of all those aces that HIC thinks the EC have! ;)


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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Pete G »

HIC is quite correct, its pretty much an irrelevance.

The EC neither has the power or the authority to determine what attitude individual member states have to take to the potential residency/immigration status to third party state's citizens [which the UK will be]

If the member states want to be bound by an overall agreement, that's fine, its hard to see how they could reach a common position between the states that want to encourage UK immigration but not emigration [like Cyprus] those who want to encourage UK emigration but not immigration [like Poland] or the states that just want to do business [like Germany] and those that want to be effectively isolationist [like France]. The EU knew they couldn't get agreement without making Spain/Gib a special case, so they did, it's just an internal issue.

May has made it clear she is happy to enter into any reciprocal agreement with any member state, if all the member states want to reach the same agreement, so much the better.

I personally think it will be like herding cats, and the EC are making their lives unnecessarily difficult just to show the UK who is in charge.

But good luck to them, I say
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by josef k »

Hudswell wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:02 pm Sorry JK, but the HC are correct....it is a matter for the Cypriot Authorities and not the UK.
What I was hoping for from the HC was an acceptance that it was an issue that concerned UK citizens and would be included in with the rights of UK citizens discussions. The document that has been agreed implies that it won't be an issue for Cyprus, but an EU issue. This makes sense as all Cyprus immigration laws are EU laws, not local ones, so the HC is being inaccurate to say the least.
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Varky »

Hudswell wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:02 pm Sorry JK, but the HC are correct....it is a matter for the Cypriot Authorities and not the UK.
HC?
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Varky »

Happy in Cyprus wrote: Mon May 01, 2017 12:29 am Well, I keep being told on this forum that I'm not very bright, but I'd like to demonstrate that I am at least brighter than Varky, so let me have a guess...
High Commission? :?
Still using sarcasm. It must be in the blood. You are becoming predictable. Let others decide instead of blowing your own trumpet.

Usually when using initials within a text I ensure that in the original text it is clear what the initials stand for. I do this as a matter of courtesy to others reading the text. I can see nowhere in the thread where this is done. For one moment I thought HC was in fact a incorrect use of HIC :lol:
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by PhotoLady »

We came upon this video by accident today....

Now, you do need to be able to multi-task as there are 2 screens running side by side - compare the In or Out of the EU.

Does the Vote Leave's stupendously dishonest and patronising ad designed to mislead seem more or less ridiculous a number of months down the line?

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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Royal »

A truly despicable advert, but not put out by the 'Vote Leave' organisation nor endorsed by them. It did not even make the national media and I would never have known about it until you posted the link which you yourself found by accident.

This was produced by an organisation called 'Patriotic Populist'. There are countless similar right wing neo nazi nationalist organisations which produce similar propaganda nonsense which simply cannot be believed. I note that the video has had less than 40,000 'hits' worldwide since being uploaded to YouTube. Hardly something that will have influenced the views of the 17 million+ who voted for Leave.
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by PhotoLady »

Also on BBC iPlayer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... e-23052016

In total it's just over 5 minutes long and repeats the first part again after the NHS side by side comparison..... watch right to the end, you will hear it was used by the Vote Leave campaign.
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Royal »

Are you seriously contending that this silly ad was instrumental in swaying 17 million + people to vote for Brexit?

I know that the Remainers have nothing but contempt for the intelligence of those who do not share their views, but this is becoming absolutely farcical.

I have never previously seen this ad. You yourself admitted that you stumbled across it and therefore was not aware of it during the actual campaign. How many others on this Forum actually saw it prior to your post? For any that did, how many actually believed it?

Come on PhotoLady, HIC, Jim B et al - for goodness sake, credit us Brexiteers with a little common sense, and get over the fact that the majority of those who voted against last year did so despite the rhetoric, lies and hysteria used by both sides and despite the fact that £9 million of taxpayers money was used by David Cameron in an 'information leaflet' to every single household in the country peddling their own propaganda and lies to remain.

The country voted Brexit. Get over it and move on...
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by PhotoLady »

Did I say it was instrumental?

We never saw the advert because we were in the midst of getting ourselves settled into our new home in UK and only got full internet access from the middle of May and a Freeview box a week or so after that...

But I'm satisfied you felt it was despicable and quite clearly was used in the Vote Leave campaign. My mind was already made up as I had a postal vote in place well before we left Cyprus.
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by josef k »

I saw the advert, and genuinely took it to be a piece of Brexit propaganda. After all, it does have the hallmarks.

Now I know that people like Royal are clear thinking and intelligent people. Nevertheless, many of the Brexit voters I spoke to at the time had strange views. For example:
1. The majority of the UK prison population are Polish.
2. Brexit will mean we can, and will, send all immigrants home.
3. UK citizens living outside the UK shouldn't be allowed to vote in the referendum as they have "deserted" the UK.
4. All the money the UK pays the EU will be spent on the NHS once the UK leaves.
5. EU immigrants take British jobs and live on British dole money.

I recall it was Churchill who said "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter".
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Poppy »

Well all I can say joseph k is that you must have been speaking to some very strange people!!
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Pete G »

I saw a video a while ago, where some remain voters were asked what they thought were the three main benefits of the EU were. One said:

1) The NHS
2) That you can travel to France for free
3) That people all think the same

Two were too upset to answer, one because the UK was now going to turn into a fascist state, even worse than Hitler, and one because she had been reliably informed that Nando's [a South African company] would be so inconvenienced by Brexit and no free movement they would immediately withdraw from the UK

Don't think Leave have a monopoly on whackjobs
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by PhotoLady »

Financial Times article indicates EU sets Britains exit at €100bn....
Let's hope they're setting the bar high and working their way down.
Brussels hoists gross Brexit ‘bill’ to €100bn
France and Germany back tougher approach to Britain’s departure obligations


2 HOURS AGO by: Alex Barker in Brussels
The EU has raised its opening demand for Britain’s Brexit bill to an upfront gross payment of up to €100bn, according to Financial Times analysis of new stricter demands driven by France and Germany.

Following direct requests from several member states, EU negotiators have revised their initial calculations to maximise the liabilities Britain is asked to cover, including post-Brexit farm payments and EU administration fees in 2019 and 2020.

Although over coming decades Britain’s net bill would be lower than the €100bn upfront settlement, the more stringent approach to Britain’s outstanding obligations significantly increases the estimated €60bn charge mentioned by Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president.

It also reflects the steadily hardening position of many EU member states, which have abandoned early reservations about the bill’s political risks to pile on demands that will help to plug a Brexit-related hole in the bloc’s common budget.

Paris and Warsaw have pushed for the inclusion of post-Brexit annual farm payments, while Berlin is against granting Britain a share of EU assets.

Estimates of Britain’s Brexit bill are highly variable because they include assumptions on Britain’s exit date, its proper share of contributions, UK receipts such as its budget rebate or EU investment spending, and the type of liabilities it is expected to honour. European diplomats consider this flexibility as helpful in reaching a deal.

The hefty bill represents one of the biggest early obstacles to a smooth Brexit. To the alarm of the EU side, Theresa May bluntly rejected the notion of an exit bill at a recent dinner with Mr Juncker, saying any financial terms would be tied to securing a trade deal by 2019. On Tuesday, she promised to be a “bloody difficult woman” in talks.

Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, has said no figure will be set until the end of the Brexit process and payments could be staggered. But he wants Britain to agree a methodology before trade talks can begin, including a definition of EU liabilities the UK would be expected to share. He will unveil a draft negotiating mandate — including the Brexit bill assumptions — on Wednesday.

€82bn-€109bn
Bruegel think-tank estimates of the upfront payment Britain would need to make
As well as adding €10bn-€15bn of mainly farm- related payments, the commission’s tougher approach denies London a share of assets such as buildings. Significantly, it requires upfront payment for contingent guarantees and loans to countries such as Ukraine and Portugal, with Britain being reimbursed as the loans are repaid.

According to FT calculations, this brings the upfront gross settlement demand to approximately €91bn-€113bn, depending on how Britain’s share is calculated. Over a period of a decade or more, this would be reduced in net terms to roughly €55bn-€75bn as Britain received its share of EU spending and repaid EU loans.

Using similar assumptions, the Bruegel think-tank estimates that Britain would make an upfront payment of €82bn-€109bn, which would net out to €42bn-€65bn over the long term. Compared with the FT and some commission officials, Bruegel uses a higher estimate of expected EU spending in the UK and a lower estimate of net pension liabilities.

Zvolt Darvas, a senior fellow at Bruegel, said the EU’s latest approach clearly represented “the most extensive possible liabilities for the net bill”.

“It requires the UK to make a large upfront payment that is even bigger than the long- term net bill,” he added.

The commission has never published its preferred methodology. But in early discussions with member states it took a more conservative view of UK liabilities. The FT previously calculated the figure to be €40bn-€60bn in net terms — a number that corresponds to Mr Barnier’s informal estimates shared with member states.

This gave Britain a share of EU assets such as buildings, and included only what it sees as legally binding commitments to investment programmes — such as infrastructure projects in eastern Europe — running over multiple years.

However, during recent private deliberations, France and Poland insisted that EU liabilities worth €183bn, covering annual farm subsidies and administrative costs, should also be added to the tally.

Diplomats say this is reflected in the EU’s negotiating guidelines, which refer to “a single financial settlement including issues resulting from the MFF [the EU’s long-term budget]”. Greece asked that the UK also honour political commitments it made to fund refugee programmes in Turkey.

At the request of France, Germany and several other member states, the commission also abandoned its initial plans to offer the UK a share of assets, worth between €3bn and €9bn, depending on the definition used.

On the issue of contingent liabilities, Mr Barnier’s negotiating mandate is expected to require upfront payment to cover loans or guarantees, which will be “returned in accordance with the maturity of the underlying loans”.

The European Investment Bank is excluded from the FT calculations. However, the EU is insisting Britain would have a claim only on its paid-in capital, rather than a share of the bank’s €63.5bn in own funds that Britain will demand.
Sorry, couldn't get the link to work from my mobile or get to the actual article from the link it gave....
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Royal »

As we have thought all along - they are all in cloud cuckoo land!

It's almost as if they want us to walk away from talks and enter into a hard Brexit.

One thing is for certain, though - the rhetoric coming from Brussels, fed by Germany and France will strengthen the resolve of most British people. We are a sovereign nation and will not be pushed around or dictated to. Many of those European countries would simply not even exist if it wasn't for Britain's resolve nearly 80 years ago. We don't expect an eternal debt of gratitude - but we demand a little more respect!
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Royal »

The Times is carrying an article today which states that our Prime Minister cannot lead the Brexit negotiations and cannot talk to the other EU leaders about Brexit matters. Apparently, she is only 'allowed' to talk to Michel Barnier:

"Theresa May will be barred from negotiating the terms of Brexit with her fellow European Union leaders, senior figures in Brussels have warned.

In a sign of an increasingly hardline approach, the prime minister will be prevented from joining discussions at future EU heads of state meetings, she has been told. The only person with whom she can sit down for talks is the European Commission’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier".


Our Head of Government is only 'allowed' to talk to a civil servant, who in turn will have direct access to the 27 other Heads of Government.

Just who the hell do these Eurocrats think they are talking to?
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Re: Brexit negotiation stance - agreed by all 27 member in 15 minutes

Post by Dominic »

Um, the Prime Minister already is excluded from the EU meetings, is she not?
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