The lights are going out all over Europe

[cyprusgrump]

Lynne, interesting article in today's ST about the infamous Michael O'Leary of Ryanair. This is what he says of the Brexit vote:

As the Brexit clouds gather, O'Leary is turning his attention away from the UK. It's planned growth in Britain of 12% this year has been slashed to 5%.

So what could be the problem? He reckons tearing up the referendum decision would be a good start. "I don't have too much truck with these exiters saying, 'Oh, it's a sovereign vote and people have already voted out.' Rubbish. John Maynard Keynes was supposed to have said, 'When the facts change, I change my opinions.'"

What exercises O'Leary most is what he views as the big "lie" sold to the British people. "I remain concerned that the electorate was fundamentally misled by the exit side," he says.

"The people were promised that you could leave the EU and stay in the single market. It's now absolutely clear that they were lied to by the exiters. That offer is not on the table and significant damage will be done to the UK as a result."

Perhaps his telly was broken during the debate and he missed George Osborne, Cameron et al saying that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

[keving]

Lynne, interesting article in today's ST about the infamous Michael O'Leary of Ryanair. This is what he says of the Brexit vote:

As the Brexit clouds gather, O'Leary is turning his attention away from the UK. It's planned growth in Britain of 12% this year has been slashed to 5%.

So what could be the problem? He reckons tearing up the referendum decision would be a good start. "I don't have too much truck with these exiters saying, 'Oh, it's a sovereign vote and people have already voted out.' Rubbish. John Maynard Keynes was supposed to have said, 'When the facts change, I change my opinions.'"

What exercises O'Leary most is what he views as the big "lie" sold to the British people. "I remain concerned that the electorate was fundamentally misled by the exit side," he says.

"The people were promised that you could leave the EU and stay in the single market. It's now absolutely clear that they were lied to by the exiters. That offer is not on the table and significant damage will be done to the UK as a result."

Perhaps his telly was broken during the debate and he missed George Osborne, Cameron et al saying that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

The Remoaners Osborne, Cameron et al were scaremongering when they said that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the singe market. It was part of Project Fear

[cyprusgrump]

Lynne, interesting article in today's ST about the infamous Michael O'Leary of Ryanair. This is what he says of the Brexit vote:

As the Brexit clouds gather, O'Leary is turning his attention away from the UK. It's planned growth in Britain of 12% this year has been slashed to 5%.

So what could be the problem? He reckons tearing up the referendum decision would be a good start. "I don't have too much truck with these exiters saying, 'Oh, it's a sovereign vote and people have already voted out.' Rubbish. John Maynard Keynes was supposed to have said, 'When the facts change, I change my opinions.'"

What exercises O'Leary most is what he views as the big "lie" sold to the British people. "I remain concerned that the electorate was fundamentally misled by the exit side," he says.

"The people were promised that you could leave the EU and stay in the single market. It's now absolutely clear that they were lied to by the exiters. That offer is not on the table and significant damage will be done to the UK as a result."

Perhaps his telly was broken during the debate and he missed George Osborne, Cameron et al saying that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

The Remoaners Osborne, Cameron et al were scaremongering when they said that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the singe market. It was part of Project Fear

Oh I see!

So it was a lie then...? Much like the rest of the propaganda document that was posted out to everybody...?

How about the Brexiteers that made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

[keving]

Perhaps his telly was broken during the debate and he missed George Osborne, Cameron et al saying that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

The Remoaners Osborne, Cameron et al were scaremongering when they said that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the singe market. It was part of Project Fear

Oh I see!

So it was a lie then...? Much like the rest of the propaganda document that was posted out to everybody...?

How about the Brexiteers that made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

The Brexiteers were also dishonest; their claim that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market was a lie of the same order of magnitude that Leaving would save £350m per week.

[kingfisher]

Remember we now live in a "post-truth" world. Stick to reliable sources like BBC and Guardian.

[Jimgward]

I wonder what all the ex-pats will do, when they find they have to pay for healthcare and potentially increased taxes, for being aliens in the EU

[Conoflex]

I was always of the opinion that the vote to Leave was a vote to quit the single market. I also voted on the assumption Britain would then gain access to the single market , be it through a new agreement with the EU or WTO terms.

If Britain is denied access to the single market that will be a blow, as it will be to all those other European states who will find they cannot access the hugely lucrative British market. If the EU wants to create some sort of economic fight to the death between Britain and the other European states I think they'll find the nation states will turn their guns on the orchestrator of the chaos?

As for the “£350 million” that is the figure Britain is meant to be paying into the EU every year, but the Maggie rebate reduced that to nearer 250 million.

However that was set to rise considerably as Britain continued to expand economically at a greater rate than the rest of the Eurozone- effectively penalising us for being more "successful" than the rest of Europe. Cameron has already stumped up an additional £1.7 billion he said he had "no intention of paying" . We do of course get about half of that "back" but have no say on how it is spent.

There is also the cost of complying with all EU regulations for our own "domestic" production and consumption. The cost of this is estimated a £20 billion per year

So no, I didn't expect or believe the claim that £350 million a week was going to be thrown at the NHS by leaving the EU, but I do believe that significant savings can be made by leaving and they indeed may be approaching £300 million a week once the dust has settled

As for what happens to ex pats? Theresa May has already offered to guarantee the rights of all EU citizens in the UK in return for a reciprocal agreement throughout Europe- effectively taking people's lives off the negotiating table. It was the EU that declined that offer- conclude from that what you like

[Dominic]

Remember we now live in a "post-truth" world. Stick to reliable sources like BBC and Guardian.

The reliability of the Guardian rose to new heights yesterday, with this article.

Paphos gets a mention!

[cyprusgrump]

The Remoaners Osborne, Cameron et al were scaremongering when they said that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave the singe market. It was part of Project Fear

Oh I see!

So it was a lie then...? Much like the rest of the propaganda document that was posted out to everybody...?

How about the Brexiteers that made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

The Brexiteers were also dishonest; their claim that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market was a lie of the same order of magnitude that Leaving would save £350m per week.

So you think that justified the PM, the chancellor the ECB, The BoE, POTUS and just about everybody else lying to the British people...?

[Jimgward]

I was always of the opinion that the vote to Leave was a vote to quit the single market. I also voted on the assumption Britain would then gain access to the single market , be it through a new agreement with the EU or WTO terms.

If Britain is denied access to the single market that will be a blow, as it will be to all those other European states who will find they cannot access the hugely lucrative British market. If the EU wants to create some sort of economic fight to the death between Britain and the other European states I think they'll find the nation states will turn their guns on the orchestrator of the chaos?

As for the “£350 million” that is the figure Britain is meant to be paying into the EU every year, but the Maggie rebate reduced that to nearer 250 million.

However that was set to rise considerably as Britain continued to expand economically at a greater rate than the rest of the Eurozone- effectively penalising us for being more "successful" than the rest of Europe. Cameron has already stumped up an additional £1.7 billion he said he had "no intention of paying" . We do of course get about half of that "back" but have no say on how it is spent.

There is also the cost of complying with all EU regulations for our own "domestic" production and consumption. The cost of this is estimated a £20 billion per year

So no, I didn't expect or believe the claim that £350 million a week was going to be thrown at the NHS by leaving the EU, but I do believe that significant savings can be made by leaving and they indeed may be approaching £300 million a week once the dust has settled

As for what happens to ex pats? Theresa May has already offered to guarantee the rights of all EU citizens in the UK in return for a reciprocal agreement throughout Europe- effectively taking people's lives off the negotiating table. It was the EU that declined that offer- conclude from that what you like

You're hugely mistaken over the figures.

The actual true contribution is around £180m per week.... sounds a lot? Our GDP hit in the first free months wiped out years of that..... The GDP is affected badly by the weakened pound... while trade increases temporarily, other effects come in.

As to having no direcition on the spend co I got back in..... not true. Universities and Agriculture and all the other receivers of EU grants most often applied through UK administrators.

The UK also chose to implement EU regulations on most things.... al out no other country chose to be as stringent as the UK did. All parties were guilty. The EU didn't impose these on the UK.

Wait till you see the costs already accruing from drawing up new regulations. PWC and many others are already making a fortune on this. The NHS is also losing out big time on research grants, as are SMEs who, as usual, become overlooked.

[Jersey]

I wonder what all the ex-pats will do, when they find they have to pay for healthcare and potentially increased taxes, for being aliens in the EU

I guess the same for of us who lived here pre-EU...we managed to survive some how ??

[cyprusgrump]

As Ryanair's O'Leary reminded, UK voters were lied to by those opportunistic comedians, Farage and Boris. The price for their folly will be paid for many years to come.

Which was a lie as he claimed that the leave campaigners did not say that Brexit meant leaving the single market.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, everybody - both Remainers and Brexiters - made it clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market.

Perhaps his telly was broken during the debate and he missed George Osborne, Cameron et al saying that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market...?

And as I also pointed out earlier in the thread, the whole country was also lied to by just about everybody else in the 'Remain' campaign...

So you think that justified the PM, the chancellor the ECB, The BoE, POTUS and just about everybody else lying to the British people...?

Remember that they warned of Armageddon immediately after a vote to leave the EU...

So don't try and take some moral high ground claiming that Brexiters lied while the Remainers were some saintly virtues of truth...

[Conoflex]

To be honest with you I think the actual amount contributed is a drop in the ocean compared to the UK's overall budget-and indeed the amount (whatever it is is) a bit of a red herring.Which is why it really means nothing whether people "lied" or not. I know we spend more in foreign aid than we do on the EU budget - and that although controversial is also pretty paltry

I would quite happily see the UK pay the entire amount with nothing back to continue access to the single market as long as it could then go do what it wanted and needed to do in it's own internal matters and external trade . It is the rest of the paraphernalia attached to the single market that is the problem

Europe has the highest unemployment rates and slowest growth rates of any major economic area and as long as the UK is effectively shackled to it it is economically falling behind the rest of the world. That will not change as long as the EU is paying the massive price of holding the Euro together.

The EU has lots of good things in the legislation- problem is in the real world we cannot afford them all !!! Real economic growth has to be through innovation and efficiency. Hammering all the wrong shaped pegs into the wrong shaped holes trying to impose a uniform standard across an entirely different spectrum of economies does not achieve that and never can.

Of course there will be a short term price for leaving, and the EU and the markets will try and punish Britain for doing so- if that wasn't the case and the benefits were instant and scot free EVERYONE would leave (probably even the Germans!!!). The terms of Article 50 mean that we get all the worst aspects of leaving before we get any of the better ones - that is all part of the entrapment process that was the Lisbon Treaty

The exchange rate is another red herring- the "best" exchange rate is one that protects jobs and promotes growth- the "worst" ones (often the" highest") do not. The higher the rate the more it benefits retired expats, the lower the rate he more it benefits British business. You are better having a job and not being able to afford a jar of imported Marmite because the exchange rate has gone down than the alternative. I'm sure the good people of Southern Europe would gladly swap a "strong" Euro for a job In that context how UK GDP is quantified financially through exchange rate fluctuation becomes irrelevant (within limits of course and we are nowhere near in "problem" range)

I knew in leaving that my income would be cut (although the rise in the stock markets will have offset much of that)- that was a price I was wiling to pay for the long term future of the UK out of failing entity that started as a trading bloc, but has morphed into an undemocratic, unaccountable, corrupt, outmoded and self serving monster

The UK's housing stock is depleted, the NHS is at breaking point, social services cannot cope, house prices continue to rise and home ownership percentages continue to fall, retirement ages are going up and people are having to work harder and longer without bring able to attain he quality of lie I was able to enjoy at a similar age . All this despite the EU's alleged "benevolence" when it comes to dishing out what are unaffordable social provisions and unworkable "freedoms"

Sure the UK has lots of it's own self made problems, but it also has lots it cannot tackle as long as unlimited numbers can come here to work (driving down wages of course ) and unlimited capital can flow in to snap up houses for investment.

Sorting all that out is a massive task that cannot be undertaken until such time as we can determine what is best for ourselves- and as long as we are in the EU we can not do that!!!!!!

As for O'Leary- when it looks like he might be getting stiffed with a big tax bill in Ireland, he says Ireland should quit the EU. When it looks like he might be flying fewer people into and out of the UK Britain should "stay in the EU". Can you not work out that whatever he says is based entirely on what is best for him and no one else ?

[kingfisher]

Only the most desperate in what was the “remain” camp are still bleating on about the “£350 million a week”. At least, thank God, we will eventually be free.
The most persistent and poisonous obfuscation from the “remain” camp, in my view, is the “confusion” between “Europe” and the corrupt “EU project”. The young in particular have fallen for this guff as they have not been around for the full duration of the fiasco as have us older people born during or just after Germany’s second failed attempt to dominate the world.
We started the industrial revolution, great inventions and discoveries in science were being made in Britain- we don’t need the EU to return perhaps 50% of what we give them so we can learn how to be “innovators”.

[Jimgward]

Only the most desperate in what was the “remain” camp are still bleating on about the “£350 million a week”. At least, thank God, we will eventually be free.
The most persistent and poisonous obfuscation from the “remain” camp, in my view, is the “confusion” between “Europe” and the corrupt “EU project”. The young in particular have fallen for this guff as they have not been around for the full duration of the fiasco as have us older people born during or just after Germany’s second failed attempt to dominate the world.
We started the industrial revolution, great inventions and discoveries in science were being made in Britain- we don’t need the EU to return perhaps 50% of what we give them so we can learn how to be “innovators”.

Another believer in the 'Rule Britannia" - Britain was only ever great for the middle and upper classes. The vast majority of people were impoverished right up until the 70's and beyond. The great inventions and discoveries were when we were one of the few educated nations, capable of being the seat of enlightenment for a period. Nowadays, no individual invents things. They are corporate. Our best corporations get sold.... look at the airlines, airports, train manufacturers, banks (yes, they were good once) and more. Even last year, ARM was sold to a Japanese businessman with no money and a terrible reputation. The cream of Cambridge innovation will be in Japan in 5 years. May heralded that as good news!

Globalisation is your problem, not just the EU. We live in a world where our neighbours aren't physically close. We have dirt-poor people in Africa, with smartphones, looking at the riches of the west. We get inundated with immigration and instead of trying to solve the problem at source, we try to stem a tide already on our shore and people vote Farage in the stupid belief it's an EU issue....

When someone is pissing in your river you drink out of, it's cheaper to go upstream and educate and train him, than build a purification plant.

Since the UK, in it's Imperialist past, occupied all but 3 or so countries of the world, in many cases raping them and their people, we would do better to help, than build walls. We are part of the historical problem. Look at trouble spots..... Israel, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, much of Africa, South America, Ireland, oh... and Cyprus ..... the common denominator?

[cyprusgrump]

Globalisation is your problem, not just the EU. We live in a world where our neighbours aren't physically close. We have dirt-poor people in Africa, with smartphones, looking at the riches of the west. We get inundated with immigration and instead of trying to solve the problem at source, we try to stem a tide already on our shore and people vote Farage in the stupid belief it's an EU issue....

One of the problems of course is that the 'single market' is no such thing - it is a customs union... it doesn't enhance free trade, it specifically acts as a barrier against it...

Sure,. if you are in the EU you can trade tariff free...

If you are outside it is a different story. So we apply punitive tariffs on African goods to protect French farmers for instance... Africa can send us their green coffee beans but if they roast them or process them they can't because they face huge tariffs on roasted beans...

Africa is dirt-poor because we choose them to be so then assuage our guilt by sending them foreign aid...

Solving the problem at source would involve ripping up the CAP and trading freely with Africa.

I read today that Tunisia has a surplus of blood oranges this year and may have to destroy tonnes of them - why can't we have cheap blood oranges on the shelves of supermarkets in the EU? because of the 28% tariff we impose on them...

[Conoflex]

The best way to eliminate African poverty and help stop them flooding across the Med would be to have free trade deals with them surely ?

The EU rakes in more from tariffs on African produce than those farmers get for growing it. Meanwhile the EU spends about 40% of it's budget subsidising European farmers and protecting them from foreign competition- seems a bit strange to me.

As for what Britain has done in the past- it is indeed just that- history. All the other major European powers did their fair share of empire building too, and committed the same sort of atrocities we did

Globalisation is indeed the name of the game, but you don't need to be absorbed in a political union to participate in it

ps- you beat me to it this time Grump

[cyprusgrump]

ps- you beat me to it this time Grump

Yessssssssssssssssssss!

[Jimgward]

The best way to eliminate African poverty and help stop them flooding across the Med would be to have free trade deals with them surely ?

The EU rakes in more from tariffs on African produce than those farmers get for growing it. Meanwhile the EU spends about 40% of it's budget subsidising European farmers and protecting them from foreign competition- seems a bit strange to me.

As for what Britain has done in the past- it is indeed just that- history. All the other major European powers did their fair share of empire building too, and committed the same sort of atrocities we did

Globalisation is indeed the name of the game, but you don't need to be absorbed in a political union to participate in it

ps- you beat me to it this time Grump

The problem in total free trade, is that agriculture in Britain, along with what remains of manufacturing of goods, would dissapear. As it is, Eastern European immigrants in Eastern England are the only ones prepared to work the fields. Fruit and vegetable picking is already performed by migrants and any less subsidies or cheaper imports and farms will close wholesale.

Similarly, engineering would disappear, where it relies on a lot of labour.

One of our problems is that we've become accustomed as consumers, to ridiculously cheap prices on some items we might only ever buy once.... the last time I saw a DVD drive, it was £12 in ASDA. That means it was manufactured in the Far East, packaged shipped and sold to Asda for probably £7. An item we would only every buy one or two of in a lifetime. We've driven prices to the point where we're killing the planet with emissions, with ships carrying ridiculously cheap goods to the west, and returning loaded with waste to be dumped at sea, on African beaches or at best landfill somewhere.

It's time people dropped the throwaway mentality. You rarely see people in cars over 7 or 8 years old now... kids want brand new cars, brand new houses and are too lazy to even cut their own grass.

God help us all!

[keving]

Jim, I buy African fruit and vegetables all the time from Tesco and Waitrose and despite the so called "extortionate" tariff on African food imports, there is healthy demand.

Maybe its just expats in Cyprus who don't buy African produce?

So, if the EU (and by that I mean EU governments) is "raking it in" then that means the tariffs are pretty ineffectual in reducing demand from EU citizens for African produce.

Whatever EU governments rake in is money from EU citizens and is an additional tax. A tax which many citizens are prepared to pay.

Shall we talk about coffee? No EU tariff on imported green coffee beans. A 7% tariff imposed on roasted coffee beans imported from Africa. So, if I buy roasted coffee beans from Africa it costs me 7% more than had there been no tariff. And I tell you what, that 7% tax is almost eroded to nothing if you compare with the price of Lavazza.

Be careful of the very bullshit comparisons that bring Africa into the EU debate.

We can support Africa through the 0.7% of GDP that we give to aid.

Maybe instead of encouraging them to export more food to us, we should be help Africa to reduce its own dependency on food imports. For a continent that imports 83% of its food requirements it seems odd that we should focus on them increasing exports of their home grown food.