UK Government can't say it wasn't warned...

[living the dream]

Jeba - I do not see how you can compare private industry to local and national government, no private company as stated would stockpile PPE or ventilators on the off chance - unless previously paid for, I have never known the UK government or any government make it mandatory for private enterprise to manufacturer goods on the off chance the government may need those goods. Councils around the UK have had budgets cuts and budget freezes for many years since the crash of 2008 so to expect those councils to have spent millions on PPE, Ventilators, Specialist Hospital Beds etc to sit in storage etc would not have been high on the councils lists of priority.

One thing I do agree on is that I feel the NHS does need a complete revamp, having previously visited my local hospital last year with my wife I noted that amount of offices "Head of Department, Secretary to HOD, Assistant to the HOD, Assistant to the secretary of the HOD" etc. In this era of technology do we really need all these layers of middle management ? it seemed to be the same on every floor. I would be interested to know in an average City or large Town Hospital how many people working are Nurses, Doctors and Porters etc and how many are administration, secretarial and middle management.

I agree that Germany was ahead of the game but they are already preparing for a second wave so the different approaches made by different countries can be easily cited as good or bad. Sweden thought they had the right approach but there cases are now increasing daily. The main lesson that the WHO and world leaders should have learnt from this is that any future signs of an epidemic in ANY country and that country should immediately lock down its boarders, ground all flights and stop all travel and isolate the country from the rest of the world - a similar approach to how NZ dealt with the outbreak - locked the country down, nothing in nothing out basically and they have fared exceptionally well.

[Jim B]

LTD
The UK government had ample warning after the failures highlighlighted by Cygnus. You can't keep referring to the crash of 2008, that was twelve years ago and successive Tory governments went down the path of austerity, totally ignoring the Cygnus findings.
I've worked for oil companies that have warehouses full of "just in case stock"that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Min-Max and Use By Dates all programmed into the system to make sure overstocking or understocking didn't happen and end of life stock was sold off and replaced. The government was caught short and should be held to account.
People shouldn't just be statistics of failure.

Jim

[Jimgward]

Let's compare with the average household today...

Apart from some cupboards full of toilet rolls....

Most people have more food in house than they ever had before. More are cooking at home than ever before. We need to watch that food stockpile, for expiry. Use items before they go off. I try to only go to the supermarket once per week, so it's not easy to juggle fresh and frozen. More planning required.

The NHS has always had warehouses full of stuff - but in recent years, in England only, with full autonomy to Health Trusts and CCGs, then local Trusts would be responsible for supplies. In Scotland, Wales and NI, they have centralised warehouses and purchasing.
The Government is responsible for strategy in cases like this. They advised risks were low, when they weren't. People listened and underestimated. Also, we have never, m even now, had a nationwide appeal for companies to manufacture PPE - I don't know why. We easily could. By not doing, I think it is criminal and people have died. Schools are making face masks on little printers, 100 a day... Some companies could make 10's of thousands a day but their offers have fallen on deaf ears. I know that for a fact.

[Jimgward]

That is just wrong. There is no way the government would seek to kill off its biggest voting pool.

While no conscious decision would ever have been made to create a scenario that would put any demographic at more risk, the herd mentality did accept that many people would die, to allow the spread of the virus throughout the population. They believed that 60% needed to be infected, which mean, at say .5% deaths, that some 200,000 people might die. They used that actual figure in some briefings.

They also knew that the elderly and ill were at most risk and that 80 - 90% of this who would die, would be in that demographic, therefore they saw as necessary (expendable) a very large number of people, to maintain the economy.

Now, they were forced into a lockdown, albeit half-hearted and less than almost any other country. So, their belief in herd immunity was always still there, but spread over a longer period than initially wanted (wished for). No protection of care homes or elderly at home was put in place. No advice even, to ensure that care homes could protect themselves. In fact, they displaced many thousands of elderly patients from hospitals into care homes and hospices and during homes, during the outbreak, with no testing. Many of these people were carriers and infected those homes.

I'd say that there were, at the very least, mistakes that cost lives.

[Uncle D]

That is just wrong. There is no way the government would seek to kill off its biggest voting pool.

Even if any of them are still around for the next general election, I would expect that a fair few of the elderly that are in care homes probably don't have the will or energy to vote.

[jeba]

Jeba - I do not see how you can compare private industry to local and national government, no private company as stated would stockpile PPE or ventilators on the off chance - unless previously paid for, I have never known the UK government or any government make it mandatory for private enterprise to manufacturer goods on the off chance the government may need those goods. Councils around the UK have had budgets cuts and budget freezes for many years since the crash of 2008 so to expect those councils to have spent millions on PPE, Ventilators, Specialist Hospital Beds etc to sit in storage etc would not have been high on the councils lists of priority.

It can be done though and e. g. in Germany it is. It´s called fulfilling the "Sicherstellungsauftrag" (closest translation might be "duty of guaranteeing service delivery"). In the health system there are legal entities like the Chamber of Pharmacists which every pharmacy must belong to and which among other things have to make sure that drugs are stocked in sufficient numbers. They have the power to strip a pharmacy of it´s license in case of noncompliance. I was once told by a (slightly infuriated) pharmacist that he had to order a € 6000 cancer drug for a patient who never picked it up (even if it had been picked up his profit would have been about € 7 because pharmacies aren´t allowed to profit from prescription drugs - they only get that € 7 dispensing fee, no matter whether the´re selling a € 6 or € 6000 drug). For obvious reasons pharmacies (which in Germany are privately run businesses) aren´t interested in business like that - but they have to comply. In a similiar way hospitals were forced to close non-emergency operations and buy additional ventilators (they´re being paid for each day a ventilator isn´t used though). Why should it not have been possible to force hospitals to stock up on PPE (btw. it wasn´t done in Germany either - even though emergency planning from 2013 recommended making it mandatory)?

One thing I do agree on is that I feel the NHS does need a complete revamp, having previously visited my local hospital last year with my wife I noted that amount of offices "Head of Department, Secretary to HOD, Assistant to the HOD, Assistant to the secretary of the HOD" etc. In this era of technology do we really need all these layers of middle management ? it seemed to be the same on every floor. I would be interested to know in an average City or large Town Hospital how many people working are Nurses, Doctors and Porters etc and how many are administration, secretarial and middle management.

Why would you need a state-run healthcare system at all? Wouldn´t it better to have a private system which is sufficiently regulated (e. g. with not-for -profit insurance companies, regulated prices, cover for everybody....)? My gut feeling tells me it would be more efficient (i. e. cheaper) and offer more choice for patients (e. g. there are more than 100 not-for-profit health insurance companies you can pick from in Germany which hardly differ in price but offer different frills like cover beyond what they have to offer and the management of which is elected by the insured). I´m not saying the German system is the best - it´s just the one I´m familiar with as I´m German myself. I´ve heard the French system should be even better - I just don´t know much about it other than it´s a private system as well.

[Jimgward]

The system in Canada, I had the fortune/misfortune to use once, was excellent. It was like every patient had a chequebook and they each had their own chosen consultant, surgeon, GP, Paediatrician etc. etc. If you worked, the cost of healthcare was deducted, if you didn't;t it was paid for you or subsidised if you earned too little

[jeba]

The system in Canada, I had the fortune/misfortune to use once, was excellent. It was like every patient had a chequebook and they each had their own chosen consultant, surgeon, GP, Paediatrician etc. etc. If you worked, the cost of healthcare was deducted, if you didn't;t it was paid for you or subsidised if you earned too little

That would be a proper description of the German system as well. Except we don't have have a chequebook but the EHIC card. Is the system in Canada run privately?

[Diocletian]

LTD
The UK government had ample warning after the failures highlighlighted by Cygnus. You can't keep referring to the crash of 2008, that was twelve years ago and successive Tory governments went down the path of austerity, totally ignoring the Cygnus findings.
I've worked for oil companies that have warehouses full of "just in case stock"that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Min-Max and Use By Dates all programmed into the system to make sure overstocking or understocking didn't happen and end of life stock was sold off and replaced. The government was caught short and should be held to account.
People shouldn't just be statistics of failure.

Jim

The entire EU was on an austerity program following the crash thus it was not necessarily a purely Conservative Government policy. Even Macron had to abandon loads of electoral promises once in the Elysee after being reminded that austerity was the watchword,hence the yellow vest protests.

[Jimgward]

The system in Canada, I had the fortune/misfortune to use once, was excellent. It was like every patient had a chequebook and they each had their own chosen consultant, surgeon, GP, Paediatrician etc. etc. If you worked, the cost of healthcare was deducted, if you didn't;t it was paid for you or subsidised if you earned too little

That would be a proper description of the German system as well. Except we don't have have a chequebook but the EHIC card. Is the system in Canada run privately?

It was a virtual chequebook... hospitals were privately run, but each patient was like a private patient, within a governmental-controlled system.

[Dominic]

That is just wrong. There is no way the government would seek to kill off its biggest voting pool.

While no conscious decision would ever have been made to create a scenario that would put any demographic at more risk, the herd mentality did accept that many people would die, to allow the spread of the virus throughout the population. They believed that 60% needed to be infected, which mean, at say .5% deaths, that some 200,000 people might die. They used that actual figure in some briefings.

They also knew that the elderly and ill were at most risk and that 80 - 90% of this who would die, would be in that demographic, therefore they saw as necessary (expendable) a very large number of people, to maintain the economy.

Now, they were forced into a lockdown, albeit half-hearted and less than almost any other country. So, their belief in herd immunity was always still there, but spread over a longer period than initially wanted (wished for). No protection of care homes or elderly at home was put in place. No advice even, to ensure that care homes could protect themselves. In fact, they displaced many thousands of elderly patients from hospitals into care homes and hospices and during homes, during the outbreak, with no testing. Many of these people were carriers and infected those homes.

I'd say that there were, at the very least, mistakes that cost lives.

Mistakes are one thing, euthanasia is another.

[jeba]

I for one am proud to be British...

So too am I. But I'm equally proud to be a European.

That´s one thing I´ll never understand. How can you be proud of something you have no personal merits for? I understand you can be proud of having fulfilled your duties, having stood by your word, having raised your children to become decent persons, your marks at school or for what you achieved in my career etc. But for things you have no control over and which are simply due to random luck? I´m glad and deem myself lucky to be German and German culture and norms (well most of them) are more dear to me than others but Id never say I´m proud to be German´- or any other nationality for that matter.

[Jim B]

LTD
The UK government had ample warning after the failures highlighlighted by Cygnus. You can't keep referring to the crash of 2008, that was twelve years ago and successive Tory governments went down the path of austerity, totally ignoring the Cygnus findings.
I've worked for oil companies that have warehouses full of "just in case stock"that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Min-Max and Use By Dates all programmed into the system to make sure overstocking or understocking didn't happen and end of life stock was sold off and replaced. The government was caught short and should be held to account.
People shouldn't just be statistics of failure.

Jim

The entire EU was on an austerity program following the crash thus it was not necessarily a purely Conservative Government policy. Even Macron had to abandon loads of electoral promises once in the Elysee after being reminded that austerity was the watchword,hence the yellow vest protests.

Austerity was entirely a Conservative Policy and lasted until late last year until they needed money to bribe the populace to vote for them in the last election; the UK is in more debt now or was prior to CV19 than when Labour left office. The 2008 Crash was caused by Bankers buying bad debts up in America and was predominant in the UK which led to the UK taking a bigger hit than any other country in Europe.
The problem was Gordon Brown thought these Bankers were honourable men and gave them too much free reign.

Jim

[Jimgym]

More desperate lies from the man who is still crying over Brexit, hence his constant anti Boris posts. So, let me address some of his comments.

Self employed are getting Govt help.Rishi Sunak has unveiled the Government's bailout for the self-employed , but admitted it will not be available until June.

As the Chancellor promised that the self-employed "had not been forgotten" during the coronavirus pandemic, he set out that they would be able to claim support worth 80 per cent of their average monthly profits.

He said the "unprecedented" self-employed income support scheme , which is worth up to a maximum of £2,500 a month, would cover 95 per cent of self-employed workers. So it wasn't rolled out for 3 weeks, considering what is going on is that really not understandable to you?

He caught the virus, as have many others, should he be pilloried for that, according to you yes, what a horrible attitude.

So he has bailed out workers but his time frame didn't suit everyone? Wow, scraping the barrel again.

The NHS did get protective equipment, not enough admittedly, but during a crisis not everything is perfect.

They didnt join the EU scheme because "When it was reported last month that the U.K. has not taken part in the EU scheme, Downing Street claimed it had missed the deadline because of a communication problem. The prime minister's spokesperson had initially said the government had not taken part because the U.K. was “no longer a member [of the EU]” and was “making our own efforts” but later said the U.K. missed the deadline because it did not receive an invitation from the European Commission in time." So, lay the blame elsewhere.

Other countries did close borders and have the virus, Sweden didn't and has the virus, are you actually making a point ?

So according to you Boris should have stopped the spread and also called you a name you didn't like hold the front page.

All this stems from your dislike of him because he delivered Brexit. Unbelievable.

[Diocletian]

So all of this Boris bashing boils down to the fact that in three votes the UK electorate supported Brexit and in the third delivered a thumping majority to the Conservative Party.
As a member of that Party and a participant in its Policy Forum, I am looking forward to proposing that in the future all expats that have lived abroad for more than five years lose their right to free access to the NHS when they get sick and scurry back to Blighty for their treatment.

[Diocletian]

LTD
The UK government had ample warning after the failures highlighlighted by Cygnus. You can't keep referring to the crash of 2008, that was twelve years ago and successive Tory governments went down the path of austerity, totally ignoring the Cygnus findings.
I've worked for oil companies that have warehouses full of "just in case stock"that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Min-Max and Use By Dates all programmed into the system to make sure overstocking or understocking didn't happen and end of life stock was sold off and replaced. The government was caught short and should be held to account.
People shouldn't just be statistics of failure.

Jim

The entire EU was on an austerity program following the crash thus it was not necessarily a purely Conservative Government policy. Even Macron had to abandon loads of electoral promises once in the Elysee after being reminded that austerity was the watchword,hence the yellow vest protests.

Austerity was entirely a Conservative Policy and lasted until late last year until they needed money to bribe the populace to vote for them in the last election; the UK is in more debt now or was prior to CV19 than when Labour left office. The 2008 Crash was caused by Bankers buying bad debts up in America and was predominant in the UK which led to the UK taking a bigger hit than any other country in Europe.
The problem was Gordon Brown thought these Bankers were honourable men and gave them too much free reign.

Jim

Wrong. The entire EU was on an austerity program, ask Merkel.

[jeba]

That´s one thing I´ll never understand. How can you be proud of something you have no personal merits for?

I hear what you say, but many/most people are proud of their country of birth. Anyone who knows Americans will know that they are incredibly patriotic - possibly the most patriotic nation on earth. What about Greeks and Cypriots...are they not proud of their place of birth?

I´d also claim to have patriotic feelings for my home country and as I said German culture and norms are dearer to me than others are. But that has nothing to do with being proud of having been lucky enough to have been born there. Maybe there are different concepts of pride and the term shouldn´t be translated the way dictionaries do.

[Jim B]

What has it got to do with Brexit; you appear to be the one fixated on Brexit. It's gone, it's happened. We just happen to be discussing the incompetence of the governments approach to tackling CV19 which at best is incompetent and at worst criminal.

A lot of your replies are at best half truths or stretching the truth just like your favourite Leader has been doing and his cabinet have been doing.
As an example. Matt Hancock stated that the government would be carrying 100,000 tests per day by the end of April and when they realised they couldn't reach that figure they changed the wording to being able to "ACHIEVE" 100.000 tests a day which is a toal different ball game when they only reached about half the figure they originally stated they would achieve.

Only an idiot would go around a hospital knowingly shaking hands with CV19 patients and then openly brag about it like your illustious leader; no wonder he was taken ill and he's the man in charge; you couldnt make it up.

The day Cyprus went into lockdown it promised all workers layed off 60% of their salaries didn't wait three weeks before anouncing it; the borders were closed and a proper lockdown with a curfew introduced unlike the UK which is half hearted at best. Many people live day to day and can't afford to wait three days never mind three weeks before being told they will receive payments so not scraping the barrel but another matter of fact regarding the slow reaction of the government.
Even this morning on the Sky Money Programme said that the massive layoffs in the airline sector are due to broken promises by the government who said they would help the airlines out but has failed to do so though European countries and the USA have pumped billions into their national airlines to keep them afloat.
Very little money has been released to any size of business or individuals for that matter; have a look at the latest data on Food Banks; it's one thing saying it and another thing doing it.

The UK could have shut the borders and the airports and it may have made a difference but we will never know and Sweden didnt have to close its borders because the three countries that either border it or are connected by bridge to it shut theirs and now Sweden is paying the price for going the path it chose.

Why you try to defend the indefensible is beyond me.

[Jim B]

The entire EU was on an austerity program following the crash thus it was not necessarily a purely Conservative Government policy. Even Macron had to abandon loads of electoral promises once in the Elysee after being reminded that austerity was the watchword,hence the yellow vest protests.

Austerity was entirely a Conservative Policy and lasted until late last year until they needed money to bribe the populace to vote for them in the last election; the UK is in more debt now or was prior to CV19 than when Labour left office. The 2008 Crash was caused by Bankers buying bad debts up in America and was predominant in the UK which led to the UK taking a bigger hit than any other country in Europe.
The problem was Gordon Brown thought these Bankers were honourable men and gave them too much free reign.

Jim

Wrong. The entire EU was on an austerity program, ask Merkel.

I'm sorry but you're wrong; it wasn't an EU course of action for ALL members; certain members like Italy, Greece and Portugal had austerity measures but other members didn't.

Jim

[Jimgym]

What has it got to do with Brexit; you appear to be the one fixated on Brexit. It's gone, it's happened. We just happen to be discussing the incompetence of the governments approach to tackling CV19 which at best is incompetent and at worst criminal.

A lot of your replies are at best half truths or stretching the truth just like your favourite Leader has been doing and his cabinet have been doing.
As an example. Matt Hancock stated that the government would be carrying 100,000 tests per day by the end of April and when they realised they couldn't reach that figure they changed the wording to being able to "ACHIEVE" 100.000 tests a day which is a toal different ball game when they only reached about half the figure they originally stated they would achieve.

Only an idiot would go around a hospital knowingly shaking hands with CV19 patients and then openly brag about it like your illustious leader; no wonder he was taken ill and he's the man in charge; you couldnt make it up.

The day Cyprus went into lockdown it promised all workers layed off 60% of their salaries didn't wait three weeks before anouncing it; the borders were closed and a proper lockdown with a curfew introduced unlike the UK which is half hearted at best. Many people live day to day and can't afford to wait three days never mind three weeks before being told they will receive payments so not scraping the barrel but another matter of fact regarding the slow reaction of the government.
Even this morning on the Sky Money Programme said that the massive layoffs in the airline sector are due to broken promises by the government who said they would help the airlines out but has failed to do so though European countries and the USA have pumped billions into their national airlines to keep them afloat.
Very little money has been released to any size of business or individuals for that matter; have a look at the latest data on Food Banks; it's one thing saying it and another thing doing it.

The UK could have shut the borders and the airports and it may have made a difference but we will never know and Sweden didnt have to close its borders because the three countries that either border it or are connected by bridge to it shut theirs and now Sweden is paying the price for going the path it chose.

Why you try to defend the indefensible is beyond me.

Ask Lloyd 7 Living the Dream what it has to do with Brexit as it's they who brought it into this discussion, not me.

You appear to have a major problem about the timing of the British governments announcements re: payment to self employed etc, if thats the best you can do then its not very good.

He isn't my favourite leader. Far from it, but then you're not one to let facts get in the way are you.


Can you point out my half truths? I know they don't agree with you point of view, that doesn't make them untrue, but please point them out.


Oh so now its the governments fault that airlines are going bust? Utter rubbish! They are laying off staff for the very obvious reason, people aren't travelling. I guess in your world that is Johnsons fault as well. Laughable. I can just imagine your outrage if Virgin were given taxpayers money, you would be the first to come on here bitching about tax avoiding businessman getting taxpayer money.

Sweden didn't close its borders, end of. I think they are very probably in much better position to judge what they should do for their nation, than you are.

You may think its indefensible, but you would say that, because it suits your very, very narrow narrative.