Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Jimgward
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward »

Aquila - no knowledge of the Ford issue, but if true, totally wrong.

However, in the greater scheme of things, it pales into insignificance when we look at the negatives of leaving.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Devil »

The Aquila wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:56 pm Do you think it right that Ford should have been able to use EU funding to build a Transit Factory in Turkey thus closing the Southampton Factory making over 3000 redundant plus the knock on effect with subcontractors and the local economy?
This is obviously a corporate decision to move the plant, for whatever reason, and has little relevance to 'looking like a No Deal'.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Dominic »

Jim B wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:42 am
Dominic wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:05 am
Happy in Cyprus wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:18 am How convenient that you choose to insult me each time, rather than answer the question Remainers await with baited breath; what are the positives to arise from Brexit?

I think we'll take that as a "No, there are none".
Believe what you want, but the truth is you have just been so obnoxious to the opposing side in this debate that they choose not to respond with any sensible answers. Nobody can blame them for that.

I gave one a while back though. Not having to abide by CAP.
I looked up CAP and initially the cost of CAP was 85% of budget, now it's 37% so it hs dropped considerably. I suppose that's what happens when you're on the inside changing things rather on the outside looking in with no input.
No one said or even suggested the EU is perfect.

Jim
The question wasn't "Is the EU perfect?". The question was asking for positives to leaving. Not having to abide by CAP is one of them.

There is no point people saying that people cannot post positives for leaving, if any positive is just ignored.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward »

CAP might be seen as a positive for staying - I’m sure many farmers would agree.....
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Dominic wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:38 pm
Jim B wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:42 am
Dominic wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:05 am

Believe what you want, but the truth is you have just been so obnoxious to the opposing side in this debate that they choose not to respond with any sensible answers. Nobody can blame them for that.

I gave one a while back though. Not having to abide by CAP.
I looked up CAP and initially the cost of CAP was 85% of budget, now it's 37% so it hs dropped considerably. I suppose that's what happens when you're on the inside changing things rather on the outside looking in with no input.
No one said or even suggested the EU is perfect.

Jim
The question wasn't "Is the EU perfect?". The question was asking for positives to leaving. Not having to abide by CAP is one of them.

There is no point people saying that people cannot post positives for leaving, if any positive is just ignored.
I never ignored it, I made an observation that it's not as much a drain on the budget as it once was. I would guess if you're a farmer losing the subsidies the CAP brings then it would not be positive.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Devil wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:34 pm
The Aquila wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:56 pm Do you think it right that Ford should have been able to use EU funding to build a Transit Factory in Turkey thus closing the Southampton Factory making over 3000 redundant plus the knock on effect with subcontractors and the local economy?
This is obviously a corporate decision to move the plant, for whatever reason, and has little relevance to 'looking like a No Deal'.
This link confirms Devils comments, It was a corporate decision.
I can remember International Harvester doing exactly the same in Liverpool, shut down production and moved to another country where production was cheaper and subsidies better and that was before the EU.

JIM


https://infacts.org/eu-not-paying-uk-firms-outsource/
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Les Bean wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:00 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:45 pm
Dominic wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:05 am

Believe what you want, but the truth is you have just been so obnoxious to the opposing side in this debate that they choose not to respond with any sensible answers. Nobody can blame them for that.

I gave one a while back though. Not having to abide by CAP.
Thank you Dominic, it's exactly why I don't wish to debate with him. As to why people chose to vote leave, that is up to them and they don't need to defend it to anyone on here. Leave won, Remain lost and that is it.
I don't think anyone is asking people to defend their reasons for voting leave. We are asking how are lives are going to be better when we do leave
Les, I can post many reasons why people feel things will be better, I could do the same for staying in the EU. A cursory google search will pull up many sites extolling the virtues of both. As I never voted leave, which incidentally I mentioned in one of my first ever posts on here, I can't answer for anyone who did vote that way. My point, and I've said it many times is that the people voted (for whatever reason) to leave, and that should be respected. Neither side is going to back down so it becomes a pointless exercise trying to defend your position and convince the other side that you are right and they are wrong. Sadly, some have become so incredibly unpleasant, and then sought to blame others when they retaliate in the same manner. A sad state of affairs in many ways.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward »

If the majority of the population really want to leave - why not have a second referendum to underpin the first? Or are the proponents of leave afraid or are the proponents of democracy only in favour of single-decision democracy?
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jimgward wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:57 pm If the majority of the population really want to leave - why not have a second referendum to underpin the first? Or are the proponents of leave afraid or are the proponents of democracy only in favour of single-decision democracy?
Why on earth should they?? Just because Remain lost they continually call for a second referendum as if Tus was some sort of best of 3 competition. There was a vote, the issue presented was decided, end of. It’s not a question of leave voters being afraid, it's a question of Remain voters being unable to accept that they lost. For Remainers to talk of democracy whilst trying to block it is quite frankly absurd.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jim B wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:46 pm
Jim B wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.
Jimgym wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:17 pmThere was a vote, the issue presented was decided
No, there was no decision on leaving the common market nor the customs union.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:37 pm
Jimgym wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:46 pm
Jim B wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.
Jimgym wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:17 pmThere was a vote, the issue presented was decided
No, there was no decision on leaving the common market nor the customs union.
This is what Cameron said at the time. It has been widely reported.......

David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum.

The prime minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model by remaining inside the trading bloc despite being outside the EU because that would mean accepting freedom of movement and trade rules made in Brussels. The prime minister said: “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.”

From The Spectator. Leading Remainers also made it clear that voting Leave would likely entail pulling Britain out of the single market. David Cameron said: ‘What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.’ George Osborne echoed him: ‘We would be out of the single market.’ There you go: the two then most powerful men in Britain saying Leave would mean leaving the single market.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward »

Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Jimgym wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:46 pm
Jim B wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:06 pm Remain voters voted to remain, full stop. Brexiters voted for a myriad of reasons, some for a full no deal Brexit, some for a Brexit with all the unicorns and rainbows promised by the likes of Gove and Davies. Some voted for a Norway and some for a Swiss option while others wanted to leave but stay in The customs union and single market.
A second referendum with the right questions on the ballot paper would sort it out once and for all.
In 1975 the UK was already a member of the EEC for two years and the referendum was for further intergration with Europe and had a resounding majority of 67% in favour unlike 52% in 2016.

Jim
No Jim, leave voters voted to do just that, as did Remain for that. However it’s dressed up, and there have been many variations, including leave voters being variably, racist, thick, Little Englanders, anti immigration etc. The vote was in favour of leave and no amount of obfuscation will alter that fact, and fact it is.
Alan
If you recall it was all "Project Fear" according to the Brexit leaders and the UK could have anything it asked for and people believed it. My eldest sister voted Brexit because she wants England to be how it was in the fifties. A friend of mine voted leave because he wants ALL immigrants out; black white and all colours in between out and no matter what you say he's convinced it will stop immiģration. Immiģration appears to be the reoccurring theme from most Brexit supporters I've spoken to.
If we don't change tack we will be still be discussing Brexit in 12 months time; there's every possibility even with a general election we will be at the same impasse we are presently in. It appears that a new referendum is the only way to break the circle whether we like it or not.

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Jimgym wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:43 am
Jimgward wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:36 am Just because Cameron (or anyone else) said something on a TV programme, doesn’t mean it was absorbed by the populace....

I posted a fantastic review of the referendum - I can do no better than defer - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10325
So, even though the Prime Minister informed the country what a leave vote would mean in regards to the single market, that, according to you isn't good enough?
But the Brexit leaders were saying exactly the opposite and poo pooing everything the government was saying. They promised the people that they could have their cake and eat it and people believed it. Everything experts said was Project Fear and we were all sick of experts according to Gove; there was a promise for everyone from rainbows and unicorns to stopping immigration.
So, no, many didn't believe or care what Cameron said or did, they believed all the lies made by Gove, Davies......

Jim
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jim, the constant complaint from Remain voters is that Leave voters didn't know what they were voting for etc, etc. I post evidence to the contrary but it seems, like snow, and leaves on a train track its the wrong sort of evidence! You can't have it both ways. If people choose not to believe someone that is up to them, but the facts were put out there, and it's up to individuals to do with them as they wish. As to Project Fear, it was real, and they did lie. it has been proven time and again, and saying it isn't true, and blaming Project Fear on Brexiteers is quite frankly ridiculous.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Alan
The vote came on the back of seven years of austerity by David Cameron's government, to many it was just a protest vote against that.

But the point is now the situation is just going round in circles and we have a Mexican Standoff. We can't just keep going infinitum, we've had a general election which solved nothing and countless manouverings by both sides and we are no closer to a decision. Do we keep doing what we're doing and try to wear each other down while both sides become more entrenched or now have a referendum on whether to remain or accept Blojo' s deal or even no deal.
Like it or not most Remainers will not accept the result because righthly or wrongly they believe it was a stitch up. Now the vast majority of the electorate know what the result of Brexit will mean for the country and themselves and as said earlier the only way out of this impasse is to have another referendum or we'll still be arguing over Brexit this time next year.


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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by outasite »

How about having a second referendum.........but with exactly the same wording.....Leave or Remain. We have all had over 3 years of pantomime, quarreling, breaking of Parliamentary precedence, MPs quitting membership of parties on whose manifests they were elected on. And if the majority is Leave, yet again, will the remainers accept it with good grace. And will those who do not bother to vote then keep the opinions to themselves. I would think if it was remain, the result would be accepted, though not without much grumbling from Leave voters. And much noisy celebration through the night from the general direction of Ha Potami.
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