Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Jim B wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:43 am Alan
Nothing has changed even after all the typing we've all done over the weekend on this subject and Brexit is still at an impasse. The situation isn't going to change unless something radical is done. Politicians and their leaders keep regurgitating the same old same old.
One way or another we will end up going back to a second referendum because that's the only way to sort it out.

Jim
The radical thing is of course to enact the result and leave.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jim B »

Alan
The 2016 referendum will never be accepted by Remain because they believe they were cheated by underhand politics and lies and that's where we are today and have been for the last three years.

Jim
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward »

Jim B wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:25 am Alan
The 2016 referendum will never be accepted by Remain because they believe they were cheated by underhand politics and lies and that's where we are today and have been for the last three years.

Jim
Additionally, Jim, we have seen no overall benefit with leaving the customs union and single market. Yes, there are loads of faults in the EU, but the position the UK presently holds, with Veto, allows us to change from within - albeit slowly. However, as an example, the UK has proposed and driven through MORE EU laws than any other country.

Also, us old enough to remember, know that pre-EU, workers rights in the UK, as well as support for the Regions north of Watford, was non-existent. No way would governments invest in the regions when London had to be supported - as it still overly is!
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:44 am
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:16 am
Jimgym wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:36 pm

I shall refer you to my post just above yours.
So we agree that 2 % of voters who feel that they voted leave based on wrong assumptions about the implications would have sufficed to change the outcome and that therefore there is no legitimacy in claiming that the UK should not only leave the EU but the customs union and the common market as well?
So, my posting the results of the referendum is taken by you that I agree on your point? Let me make it really plain, for you. People made a choice, they ticked a box, it was their choice, the vote was to leave. Now, to me, that is really quite simple and no amount of arguing, debating, twisting facts or figures will change that. If you scroll up, I have posted the full result of the referendum, for interest.
Well, the referendum result you re-posted clearly shows how slim the margin was and that 2% of voters ...... we´re going in circles here because you´re failing to acknowledge is that there was no vote on leaving the common market nor the customs union. Plus there is an argument to be made that the referendum result should be invalidated for exactly the same reason the Swiss supreme court overturned a Swiss referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... y-informed
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:08 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:44 am
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:16 am

So we agree that 2 % of voters who feel that they voted leave based on wrong assumptions about the implications would have sufficed to change the outcome and that therefore there is no legitimacy in claiming that the UK should not only leave the EU but the customs union and the common market as well?
So, my posting the results of the referendum is taken by you that I agree on your point? Let me make it really plain, for you. People made a choice, they ticked a box, it was their choice, the vote was to leave. Now, to me, that is really quite simple and no amount of arguing, debating, twisting facts or figures will change that. If you scroll up, I have posted the full result of the referendum, for interest.
Well, the referendum result you re-posted clearly shows how slim the margin was and that 2% of voters ...... we´re going in circles here because you´re failing to acknowledge is that there was no vote on leaving the common market nor the customs union. Plus there is an argument to be made that the referendum result should be invalidated for exactly the same reason the Swiss supreme court overturned a Swiss referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... y-informed
I'm not failing to acknowledge anything including the fact that Britain is leaving the EU. Saying the same thing over and over, as you are, (which incidentally is wrong, we did vote to leave the single market) won't make it correct. The referendum was done in a perfectly legal manner, under British law. Irrespective of your polls/opinions/percentages and any other desperate measure you care to come up with, the result still stands. The British people voted, they weighed up the pros and cons I am sure, and satisfied themselves, that is, each and every person who voted. Oh dear, the usual "poorly informed" insult to millions of voters, how desperate. You don't like the result, that is your prerogative.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:08 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:44 am
So, my posting the results of the referendum is taken by you that I agree on your point? Let me make it really plain, for you. People made a choice, they ticked a box, it was their choice, the vote was to leave. Now, to me, that is really quite simple and no amount of arguing, debating, twisting facts or figures will change that. If you scroll up, I have posted the full result of the referendum, for interest.
Well, the referendum result you re-posted clearly shows how slim the margin was and that 2% of voters ...... we´re going in circles here because you´re failing to acknowledge is that there was no vote on leaving the common market nor the customs union. Plus there is an argument to be made that the referendum result should be invalidated for exactly the same reason the Swiss supreme court overturned a Swiss referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... y-informed
I'm not failing to acknowledge anything including the fact that Britain is leaving the EU. Saying the same thing over and over, as you are, (which incidentally is wrong, we did vote to leave the single market) won't make it correct. The referendum was done in a perfectly legal manner, under British law. Irrespective of your polls/opinions/percentages and any other desperate measure you care to come up with, the result still stands. The British people voted, they weighed up the pros and cons I am sure, and satisfied themselves, that is, each and every person who voted. Oh dear, the usual "poorly informed" insult to millions of voters, how desperate. You don't like the result, that is your prerogative.
Indeed, saying the same thing over and over won´t make it correct. So I suggest you stop doing it. There was no referendum on leaving the customs union and / or the common market. No matter how often you´re making up that claim.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:09 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:08 pm
Well, the referendum result you re-posted clearly shows how slim the margin was and that 2% of voters ...... we´re going in circles here because you´re failing to acknowledge is that there was no vote on leaving the common market nor the customs union. Plus there is an argument to be made that the referendum result should be invalidated for exactly the same reason the Swiss supreme court overturned a Swiss referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... y-informed
I'm not failing to acknowledge anything including the fact that Britain is leaving the EU. Saying the same thing over and over, as you are, (which incidentally is wrong, we did vote to leave the single market) won't make it correct. The referendum was done in a perfectly legal manner, under British law. Irrespective of your polls/opinions/percentages and any other desperate measure you care to come up with, the result still stands. The British people voted, they weighed up the pros and cons I am sure, and satisfied themselves, that is, each and every person who voted. Oh dear, the usual "poorly informed" insult to millions of voters, how desperate. You don't like the result, that is your prerogative.
Indeed, saying the same thing over and over won´t make it correct. So I suggest you stop doing it. There was no referendum on leaving the customs union and / or the common market. No matter how often you´re making up that claim.
Again you repeat a lie, and it does you no service. I offered you the evidence, it didn't suit your argument so you denied it. Again, up to you. However, if you get comfort from believing that particular lie then so be it. I see little point in further debate.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:14 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:09 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm

I'm not failing to acknowledge anything including the fact that Britain is leaving the EU. Saying the same thing over and over, as you are, (which incidentally is wrong, we did vote to leave the single market) won't make it correct. The referendum was done in a perfectly legal manner, under British law. Irrespective of your polls/opinions/percentages and any other desperate measure you care to come up with, the result still stands. The British people voted, they weighed up the pros and cons I am sure, and satisfied themselves, that is, each and every person who voted. Oh dear, the usual "poorly informed" insult to millions of voters, how desperate. You don't like the result, that is your prerogative.
Indeed, saying the same thing over and over won´t make it correct. So I suggest you stop doing it. There was no referendum on leaving the customs union and / or the common market. No matter how often you´re making up that claim.
Again you repeat a lie, and it does you no service. I offered you the evidence, it didn't suit your argument so you denied it. Again, up to you. However, if you get comfort from believing that particular lie then so be it. I see little point in further debate.
Are you saying that there was a mention of customs union or common market on the ballot paper? If it wasn´t it wasn´t me who repeated a lie.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:26 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:14 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:09 pm
Indeed, saying the same thing over and over won´t make it correct. So I suggest you stop doing it. There was no referendum on leaving the customs union and / or the common market. No matter how often you´re making up that claim.
Again you repeat a lie, and it does you no service. I offered you the evidence, it didn't suit your argument so you denied it. Again, up to you. However, if you get comfort from believing that particular lie then so be it. I see little point in further debate.
Are you saying that there was a mention of customs union or common market on the ballot paper? If it wasn´t it wasn´t me who repeated a lie.
No, I'm not saying it now, I didn't say it yesterday, and I have never said, or even hinted at it before. I do hope that clarifies it for you.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:41 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:26 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:14 pm

Again you repeat a lie, and it does you no service. I offered you the evidence, it didn't suit your argument so you denied it. Again, up to you. However, if you get comfort from believing that particular lie then so be it. I see little point in further debate.
Are you saying that there was a mention of customs union or common market on the ballot paper? If it wasn´t it wasn´t me who repeated a lie.
No, I'm not saying it now, I didn't say it yesterday, and I have never said, or even hinted at it before. I do hope that clarifies it for you.
Really not?
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm we did vote to leave the single market
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Dominic »

How does any country leave the EU without leaving the Customs Union?

Surely if they remain in the Customs Union then they will be reliant on the EU negotiating trade deals on their behalf? It has always been made abundantly clear by just about everybody that a chief benefit to the UK will be that they will be able to negotiate their own trade deals. How can they do this if they are in the Customs Union?
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:51 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:41 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:26 pm
Are you saying that there was a mention of customs union or common market on the ballot paper? If it wasn´t it wasn´t me who repeated a lie.
No, I'm not saying it now, I didn't say it yesterday, and I have never said, or even hinted at it before. I do hope that clarifies it for you.
Really not?
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm we did vote to leave the single market
Really not Jeba, and as you obviously have time on your hands, for clarification I suggest you re-read what I have written on this thread. It's all been kept very simple by me, and it is all completely unambiguous in what it says. Should you wish to twist this to suit your argument then that is your choice. I however prefer to stick to the facts, and they do speak for themselves.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

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Differences Between the European Customs Union and the Single Market
Although both the EU Customs Union and the European Single Market are formed primarily by the member states of the EU, there are some fundamental differences between these two entities.

It is possible for a country to be a member of the Single Market but not the Customs Union and vice versa. While the Customs Union regulates international trade deals and handles imports from outside the union, the Single Market requires a much greater level of integration of policies focused on the free movement of labour, working conditions, and health and safety standards within the region.

Norway is an example of a country that is not a part of the EU Customs Union but is a member of the Single Market. Norway sets its own trade agreements for imports from outside the union but must comply with EU regulations when moving goods and people within the Single Market. Because it is not a member of the Union, Norway may only circulate domestically produced goods within the Single Market on a tariff-free basis and must prove the origin of these goods.

Turkey, Andorra and San Marino are not part of the EU or the Single Market. However, the European Union has customs union agreements with these countries.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:19 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:51 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:41 pm

No, I'm not saying it now, I didn't say it yesterday, and I have never said, or even hinted at it before. I do hope that clarifies it for you.
Really not?
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm we did vote to leave the single market
Really not Jeba, and as you obviously have time on your hands, for clarification I suggest you re-read what I have written on this thread. It's all been kept very simple by me, and it is all completely unambiguous in what it says. Should you wish to twist this to suit your argument then that is your choice. I however prefer to stick to the facts, and they do speak for themselves.
Yes, you kept it very simple. That doesn´t make it true though. And now you´re even disputing that you said
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm we did vote to leave the single market
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by jeba »

Jimgward wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:34 pm Differences Between the European Customs Union and the Single Market
Although both the EU Customs Union and the European Single Market are formed primarily by the member states of the EU, there are some fundamental differences between these two entities.

It is possible for a country to be a member of the Single Market but not the Customs Union and vice versa. While the Customs Union regulates international trade deals and handles imports from outside the union, the Single Market requires a much greater level of integration of policies focused on the free movement of labour, working conditions, and health and safety standards within the region.

Norway is an example of a country that is not a part of the EU Customs Union but is a member of the Single Market. Norway sets its own trade agreements for imports from outside the union but must comply with EU regulations when moving goods and people within the Single Market. Because it is not a member of the Union, Norway may only circulate domestically produced goods within the Single Market on a tariff-free basis and must prove the origin of these goods.

Turkey, Andorra and San Marino are not part of the EU or the Single Market. However, the European Union has customs union agreements with these countries.
Why bother to post this if according to Jimgym each and every voter knows it already? Assuming they don´t is paramount to insult (if I understood him correctly).
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:24 pm
Jimgward wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:34 pm Differences Between the European Customs Union and the Single Market
Although both the EU Customs Union and the European Single Market are formed primarily by the member states of the EU, there are some fundamental differences between these two entities.

It is possible for a country to be a member of the Single Market but not the Customs Union and vice versa. While the Customs Union regulates international trade deals and handles imports from outside the union, the Single Market requires a much greater level of integration of policies focused on the free movement of labour, working conditions, and health and safety standards within the region.

Norway is an example of a country that is not a part of the EU Customs Union but is a member of the Single Market. Norway sets its own trade agreements for imports from outside the union but must comply with EU regulations when moving goods and people within the Single Market. Because it is not a member of the Union, Norway may only circulate domestically produced goods within the Single Market on a tariff-free basis and must prove the origin of these goods.

Turkey, Andorra and San Marino are not part of the EU or the Single Market. However, the European Union has customs union agreements with these countries.
Why bother to post this if according to Jimgym each and every voter knows it already? Assuming they don´t is paramount to insult (if I understood him correctly).
No, sadly you didn’t understand me correctly. Despite the fact I kept it very simple, you still didn’t manage to grasp it. Nice try though, and keep twisting what people say to suit your own viewpoint. However do please back up your assertion that I said each and every voter knew about it already. Please, post where I said that. I’ll look forward to you backing up what you said, and rest assured I will continue to remind you of this until you rescind it or prove I said it. I detest liars.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:21 pm
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:19 pm
jeba wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:51 pm

Really not?
Really not Jeba, and as you obviously have time on your hands, for clarification I suggest you re-read what I have written on this thread. It's all been kept very simple by me, and it is all completely unambiguous in what it says. Should you wish to twist this to suit your argument then that is your choice. I however prefer to stick to the facts, and they do speak for themselves.
Yes, you kept it very simple. That doesn´t make it true though. And now you´re even disputing that you said
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm we did vote to leave the single market
Nope, yet again you are wrong, so much so it's becoming slightly embarrassing. I said, many posts ago, and in response to your constant lie, that British voters were actually told that a vote to leave was also a vote to leave the single market. I'm sorry you fail, repeatedly to grasp that very, very simple point. Each point I have made, and each response I have given you is there for all to see.
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgward »

Jimgym, you take the biscuit in having a go at people for not accepting your ONE example of voters being told about leaving by ~Cameron ~V Hundreds of examples where everyone said about no-deal being off the agenda and having trade deals with the EU being certain. But you’ve refused to even read. Yet you castigate others for not accepting your ONE example. An example that doesn’t stand Up to the argument of briefing 10’s of millions....
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Re: Not what we wanted to hear: it's looking like a No Deal :(

Post by Jimgym »

Happy in Cyprus wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:24 am
Jimgym wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:16 pmNo, sadly you didn’t understand me correctly. Despite the fact I kept it very simple, you still didn’t manage to grasp it. Nice try though, and keep twisting what people say to suit your own viewpoint. However do please back up your assertion that I said each and every voter knew about it already. Please, post where I said that. I’ll look forward to you backing up what you said, and rest assured I will continue to remind you of this until you rescind it or prove I said it. I detest liars.

I can't believe how much time you spend berating others - all others - on this forum. Purely on semantics. Yet when I challenge you in a similiar vein you take umbrage, throw your toys out of the pram and refuse to play.

That view aside, it looks like we might need to start a new thread. There is cautious optimism tonight - and no more than that - that a deal may be in sight.

The tricky thing is that even if a deal is agreed in principle with the EU, it still has to pass muster in the House of Commons. Bojo has relented in agreeing to a border in the Irish Sea (he had no other realistic option), but the DUP continue to say this would be a red line for them. The liberals still seem keen on a second referendum, so who knows how current events will pan out.

But we must be grateful for small mercies. The most important thing is that a possible deal is in sight. We can but hope that the current agreement won't be thrown out by those parties who are capable of supporting this minority government, but will refuse to do so on party or political grounds.
Nothing whatsoever to do with semantics, and everything to do with misquoting me, two very different things. As to throwing my toys out of the pram, how ridiculous. I challenged incorrect statements, yet you turn it into something completely different. For you, of all people to call me out is frankly laughable.
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